Stanley "Tookie" Williams

[ninja]

Stanley "Tookie" Williams, founder of the gang known as the CRIPS, was executed this morning. He received the death penalty for the murder of 4 people. While on death row, he wrote several anti-gang childrens books. Apparantly his actions may have saved many young children from growing up to join gangs. Do you think his actions were worthy of redemption? Do you think the death penalty is a suitable punishment?

What are your thoughts?

For those of you who don't know, here are some informational links:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/12/03/tookie.execution.ap/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Williams
http://www.tookie.com/

[b0ld]

personally... I don't buy it..... you do the crime you pay the price....period.....


Its interesting how sometimes you see these ruthless murders chop someone into pieces and then when they are thrown in jail... what what do you know they found jesus..... christ I guess he's been there all along... I don't buy it....

[dave mcnasty]

yeah if the death penalty is legal in that state....then he deserves it.....those children books don't bring back the ppl he killed

[decypher]

hah i can't believe you people.

He was convicted in 1981, 24 years ago. Most people change greatly just from the age of 18 to 21. He was caught up in some rough stuff but that doesen't mean he hasen't changed. He touched many lives during his time in jail. How is killing him bringing back the dead?

[PwInCeSs]

he co-founded a gang for gods sakes a huge gang, he then goes and kills 4 people, innocent people, people he probally never even talked to. He gets sentenced to death, and if thats what the judge or jury thought was deserving, so be it, you kill four people, why should he get a chance to live? Im sorry but a few childrens books dont cut it in my eye

[miss.myra]

Just in case all you knee jerkers didn't happen to read up on tookie, I'm not too sure if you're aware of the years of efforts he made to curb involvement in gangs, to get kids to smarten up, to promote positivity in the face of adversity, he didn't just "write a few children's books"

the idea of western society is that yes, if you commit a crime you are punished, and upon serving your time and debts to society and truly feeling remorseful for what you had done, you are free. the death penalty is hippocritical and barbaric.


..if you think the problem of gang violence was created solely by this man, then I suggest you really think long and hard about socio economic conditions and how they have a domino effect on people living in them, I strongly encourage you to read up on the last couple hundred years of racial tension in the united states.


They didn't kill tookie for the crimes he committed, but they killed him to make an example out of him.


*edit, I do realize I just totally kneejerked myself. the point I was trying to make is that a lot of people up here don't know a whole lot about the guy.

[fable]

I suggest you really think long and hard about socio economic conditions and how they have a domino effect on people living in them, I strongly encourage you to read up on the last couple hundred years of racial tension in the united states.

That was a very good suggestion :)

At the end of the day nothing excuses the the murder of anyone, and sadly we have to analyze the actions and reactions in retrospect. The entire story is mired in half truths and controversy. Stanley held onto his innoncence far into his jail term, and reportedly the evidence that put him incarceration was shakey at best.

these are some of the few questions and concepts that i was thinking about:

1) what was the race issue landscape in southern california and across the state and the US for that matter in the early eighties? The civil rightsmovement was still operating but urban sprawl and concentration and subsequent alienation of impovrished communities of mainly black and hsipanic origin was skyrocketing

2) what was the nature of racism in the california state police department, the county police departements and even the district attorneys office at the time? Reportedly *****h was as common a word to hear as was hello.

3) what was the nature of capital punishment policy in the US at the time, and what is it today?

4) What are the differences and similarities between historical black oppression in California and today?

I completely am against the death penalty, but at the same time i cant forget about the families of the victims, and belive that if any sort of positive change can come about as a result, it has to be an investigation into structural racism that delves into the racist history of California, and abroad.

If we make things so cut and dry, in regards to justice, then not only do we spit on the wasted lives already lost, but also spit on the lives that are still to be lost.

The American Justice system in the last century and a bit has racism and corruption so ingrained in the system from the top down, that is going to take a cleansing far greater then a few equality policies beeing created in the last decade. It doesnt helpt that organizations such as the NCAAP are increasingly peppered with self serving bearacracy, that it seems at times the militant grass roots organization is the only movement making significant headway.

sad shit mang

[fable]

http://www1.umn.edu/irp/publications...bansprawl.html
Race, Poverty, and Urban Sprawl: Access to Opportunities Through Regional Strategies

a half interesting essay

[cubed]

There are a lot of people who don't have a clue who Stanley Williams is.

FOR CHRIST SAKE THE MAN WAS NOMINATED FOR A NOBEL PEACE PRIZE IN 2001.

After being held on death row for 21 years, the man rehabilitated himself, and did a lot of good to curb urban gang violence. California penal system has just blatanly said that we'll rehabilitate you and then we'll kill you anyways.

This falls solely on the shoulders of "THE GOVERNATOR", Schwarzenegger has his gigantic head stuffed so far up his ass he doesn't know if he's coming or going. All it took was commuting him to life and he would continue benefit society, even if he's behind bars.

This truely is a sad state of affairs.

[shorerider]

Does it really matter? There's a million other degenerates in that country alone to fill his spot.


On a less serious note:

[shorerider]

Originally Posted by miss.myra

..if you think the problem of gang violence was created solely by this man, then I suggest you really think long and hard about socio economic conditions and how they have a domino effect on people living in them, I strongly encourage you to read up on the last couple hundred years of racial tension in the united states.

You're right, he has had it harder than everyone else. And everyone else has had it harder than everyone else. Get over it already. He knew what he was getting into when he pulled the trigger, if he got caught (and he did) that he would get the death penalty. He can write all the kid's books he wants, get nominated for all the MTV and Nobel peace prizes, but that still doesn't bring back the 4 people he killed.

Everyone is so worried about this poor guy who killed 4 people and now himself is going to die. It's the law. He knew it when he broke it. If he didn't want to wind up on death row and ultimatley dead himself, he shouldn't have killed anyone! What is so hard to grasp about this concept?

It's funny how much support this guy got/is getting from the media, but no one is supporting the 4 people he killed.

edit: and while we're at it, lettuce look at the victims, shall we.
http://www.johnandkenshow.com/archiv...victim-photos/

[nabs]

as much as i hate arnold, i cant help but think this guy deserved it. He was a gang leader and murderred people. who cares if he wrote books afterwards, pay for what you did. you cant change the past.

[ebbomega]

^^ that little bit of affective rhetoric at the end was cute, but not contributary.

in the eyes of many men, many racist men, martin luther king was a criminal. he defied the bounds of normal decency and shook a foundation to their lives.

one took it upon himself to execute him for it.

so how much more right is it if a government kills a great man than if a vigilante does?

[fable]

Originally Posted by ebbomega

^^ that little bit of affective rhetoric at the end was cute, but not contributary.

in the eyes of many men, many racist men, martin luther king was a criminal. he defied the bounds of normal decency and shook a foundation to their lives.

one took it upon himself to execute him for it.

so how much more right is it if a government kills a great man than if a vigilante does?

One is disallusioned that his/her acts carry with it the demands of the people, the other, knows that his/her actions do not, and is responsible for infinetly more deaths.

What do you think about the idea that James Earl Ray wasnt the assassin/ or a governmental pawn?

[decypher]

Originally Posted by shorerider

It's funny how much support this guy got/is getting from the media, but no one is supporting the 4 people he killed.

Don't live in the past. Those four people died and it was a tragedy, but he has changed and has brought good and so deserves a second chance.


you got to understand that there are a lot of societal factors that go into shaping the behavior of a person. The climate he was in shaped who he was. When he was convicted he realized his wrongs and made an effort to prevent other kids from falling down the same path. What if he was realeased and toured the country convincing kids to better themselves through education rather then gang related hierarchy? We will never know.

[fable]

Originally Posted by decypher

Don't live in the past. Those four people died and it was a tragedy, but he has changed and has brought good and so deserves a second chance.

or perhaps use the anger and pain associated with such violence and turn it on the people who have the market cornered on violence and useless loss,*(all the while trying to not to hate, and getting pulled under into what you always believed was what you wanted to rally against.)

[Edoe]

it seems that a lot of you arn't looking past the first page of this tookie legacy. sure he killed 4 people, got caught, went to jail. but in jail he wrote childrens books encouraging kids to stay away from gangs. think of this, howmany kids do you think tookie has saved, or at least taken part in saving from the life of gang violence? probably more than 4, because children are very suseptable to change. everyone knows that gang violence generally ends with death so if tookie should die for killing 4 people which is logical, howmany people would he have to save in order to gain the right to live? if your thinking yeah, so he saved more than 4 people, but those 4 peoples families mourned their loss, howmany less people would have to morna after what he's done? then how is tookies death logical

i'm an eye for an eye tooth for a tooth type of guy, because its logical it makes sense. but whats the harm in letting someone live, especially when they can bring good to the world.

^^if of course his childrens books are fuckin crap, and he didn't do anything good for society, then i guess he got what was comin

[neoh]

^ he killed 4 people, 4 people who will never be able to experience life, they could of single handedly found a cure for cancer, been president, and done something, so to say someone should live because he did a little good during his life is retarded, he should of been executed years ago.

[PwInCeSs]

Originally Posted by neoh

^ he killed 4 people, 4 people who will never be able to experience life, they could of single handedly found a cure for cancer, been president, and done something, so to say someone should live because he did a little good during his life is retarded, he should of been executed years ago.

i agree, im sorry no matter how much the man changed, no matter what he wrote, or what he was nominated for, He took 4 peoples lives, and in my eyes thats not forgettable and not redeemable...

And I have read up all about him and all the good he has done, but to me the good still cant outshine the killing and all the bad he has done.

[Leviathan]

* Adolf Hitler was nominated for the Nobel Prize in Peace by E.G.C. Brandt, member of the Swedish parliament. The nomination was withdrawn in a letter of February 1, 1939.
* Josef Stalin, nominated in 1945 by a Norwegian former foreign minister, nominated in 1948 by a Czech professor.
* Benito Mussolini, nominations in 1935 by a German college law faculty and a by a French law professor.


;)

Originally Posted by cubed

There are a lot of people who don't have a clue who Stanley Williams is.

FOR CHRIST SAKE THE MAN WAS NOMINATED FOR A NOBEL PEACE PRIZE IN 2001.

After being held on death row for 21 years, the man rehabilitated himself, and did a lot of good to curb urban gang violence. California penal system has just blatanly said that we'll rehabilitate you and then we'll kill you anyways.

This falls solely on the shoulders of "THE GOVERNATOR", Schwarzenegger has his gigantic head stuffed so far up his ass he doesn't know if he's coming or going. All it took was commuting him to life and he would continue benefit society, even if he's behind bars.

This truely is a sad state of affairs.

[oxide]

gang violence and crime was the reason hip hop was created in brooklyn in the 70s.. the concept was to give youth a creative outlet for their energies, to give them something better than crime to turn to.. this came in the forms of the hip hop elements

breakdancing
graffiti
MCing
DJing

[Leviathan]

I finally agree with you %100.

The whole system involved with death row just seems so flawed, and the sad thing is, if they were wrong, no one will be held accountable.

I bet if there were a system that would take a look at some of these crimes again every 5 years or so after the fact and held people accountable for wrongful executions there might be a change of heart on the death penalty. As technology changes who knows what might pop up.

Originally Posted by fable

That was a very good suggestion :)

At the end of the day nothing excuses the the murder of anyone, and sadly we have to analyze the actions and reactions in retrospect. The entire story is mired in half truths and controversy. Stanley held onto his innoncence far into his jail term, and reportedly the evidence that put him incarceration was shakey at best.

these are some of the few questions and concepts that i was thinking about:

1) what was the race issue landscape in southern california and across the state and the US for that matter in the early eighties? The civil rightsmovement was still operating but urban sprawl and concentration and subsequent alienation of impovrished communities of mainly black and hsipanic origin was skyrocketing

2) what was the nature of racism in the california state police department, the county police departements and even the district attorneys office at the time? Reportedly *****h was as common a word to hear as was hello.

3) what was the nature of capital punishment policy in the US at the time, and what is it today?

4) What are the differences and similarities between historical black oppression in California and today?

I completely am against the death penalty, but at the same time i cant forget about the families of the victims, and belive that if any sort of positive change can come about as a result, it has to be an investigation into structural racism that delves into the racist history of California, and abroad.

If we make things so cut and dry, in regards to justice, then not only do we spit on the wasted lives already lost, but also spit on the lives that are still to be lost.

The American Justice system in the last century and a bit has racism and corruption so ingrained in the system from the top down, that is going to take a cleansing far greater then a few equality policies beeing created in the last decade. It doesnt helpt that organizations such as the NCAAP are increasingly peppered with self serving bearacracy, that it seems at times the militant grass roots organization is the only movement making significant headway.

sad shit mang

[Leviathan]

Arny is a fucking tool.

I have no idea how he can fucking sleep at night driving his hummer, supporting Bush and now this. Somebody should fucking stuff his ass on a C-130 and send him to Iraq

Originally Posted by cubed

There are a lot of people who don't have a clue who Stanley Williams is.

FOR CHRIST SAKE THE MAN WAS NOMINATED FOR A NOBEL PEACE PRIZE IN 2001.

After being held on death row for 21 years, the man rehabilitated himself, and did a lot of good to curb urban gang violence. California penal system has just blatanly said that we'll rehabilitate you and then we'll kill you anyways.

This falls solely on the shoulders of "THE GOVERNATOR", Schwarzenegger has his gigantic head stuffed so far up his ass he doesn't know if he's coming or going. All it took was commuting him to life and he would continue benefit society, even if he's behind bars.

This truely is a sad state of affairs.

[shorerider]

Originally Posted by cubed

There are a lot of people who don't have a clue who Stanley Williams is.

FOR CHRIST SAKE THE MAN WAS NOMINATED FOR A NOBEL PEACE PRIZE IN 2001.

After being held on death row for 21 years, the man rehabilitated himself, and did a lot of good to curb urban gang violence. California penal system has just blatanly said that we'll rehabilitate you and then we'll kill you anyways.

This falls solely on the shoulders of "THE GOVERNATOR", Schwarzenegger has his gigantic head stuffed so far up his ass he doesn't know if he's coming or going. All it took was commuting him to life and he would continue benefit society, even if he's behind bars.

This truely is a sad state of affairs.

Court records show that as Darryl and Sims walked to the counter area to take money from the register, Williams walked behind Owens, pulled the sawed-off shotgun from under his jacket and told Owens to “shut up and keep walking.” While pointing the shotgun at Owens’ back, Williams directed him to a back storage room and ordered him to lie down. Coward said that he next heard the sound of a round being chambered into the shotgun. He then heard a shot and glass breaking, followed by two more shots. Records show that Williams shot out a security monitor and then killed Owens, shooting him twice in the back at point blank range as he lay prone on the storage room floor.

Back in L.A.

Williams, Darryl, Coward, and Sims then fled in the two cars and returned home to Los Angeles. They had netted approximately $120 in the robbery. Once back in Los Angeles, Sims asked Williams why he had shot Owens. Williams said that he “didn’t want to leave any witnesses.” Williams also said he killed Owens “because he was white and he was killing all white people.” Coward testified that Williams had bragged about the shooting, stating, “You should have heard the way he sounded when I shot him,” as he made gurgling or growling noises and laughed about Owens’ death.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley...otched_robbery


open your fucking eyes, k? get over the nobel peace prize bullsit already! If I had all that time to sit and stew in jail knowing that I was going to die as a result of my actions, don't you think that I would spend every waking hour trying to avoid dieing? Seriously! who's to say this guy hasn't been stringing everyone along with all his floofy lil books and whatnot in an effort to stave off death?

[miss.myra]

I'm sorry but how is the death penalty going to bring back the dead?

Does the death penalty make America's streets any safer? Do Americans feel any safer with it in place?