vancouver's safe injection site - insite

[Goat]

Originally Posted by 3507321C

If I provoked the beaters and it's my starting the shit that gets me beat to death, yes.

If i am just minding my own shit and get beat to death, no.

Do you understand that no one runs up to these junkies and sticks a rig in their arm ?

Don't get the logic twisted to try and make me look bad.

Maybe read a book or two by darwin before you look like a tit....again.

Provoking someone and minding your own shit is pretty subjective. Holding the hostile and callous viewpoints you're spouting though, I'd be surprised if no one was provoked.

[esoter1c]

Originally Posted by Goat

Provoking someone and minding your own shit is pretty subjective. Holding the hostile and callous viewpoints you're spouting though, I'd be surprised if no one was provoked.

That's my opinion.

I hate junkies.

If I had my way they'd all be left to die on their own terms in the alleys.

I have zero sympathy for those who do not appreciate or care about life/loved ones.

Junkies are selfish scum.

Fuck them, they're not worth a fucking dime.

[esoter1c]

Originally Posted by sidekick

it is, but it costs a fraction of the ammount that health care needed for long term care of HIV infections, Hep C and overdoses cost.

Junkies that go to these safe injection sites usually have diseases.

They go just to get a rig and a warm place to shoot up.

Junkies without diseases that go to safe sites don't go to these places everytime they shoot up, they'll go the safe site shoot up, then end up miles away in a drug induced haze and just shoot up with some rig they find on the ground.

there's no controlling where and what these junkies do.

there is no solution, there's only self serving people making themselves feel good when really they are no help.

I don't care about tax dllars being wasted on junkies in safe sites or hospitals or ambulances or whatever.

My problem is with the fact these people are not being helped as there is now way to help a junkie whatsoever.

The only way a junkie is saved is by themselves.

You think helping them get fucked up safely is really the answer !?

Like I said you might as well give paedos a hotel room and some kids.

Society is so eager to help and do good it just does more harm in it's blind selfish ignorance.

It's sad/pathetic/reprehensible...ad infinitum.

[Hot Karl]

Originally Posted by 3507321C

Junkies that go to these safe injection sites usually have diseases.

They go just to get a rig and a warm place to shoot up.

sources?

Junkies without diseases that go to safe sites don't go to these places everytime they shoot up, they'll go the safe site shoot up, then end up miles away in a drug induced haze and just shoot up with some rig they find on the ground.

there's no controlling where and what these junkies do.

the theory is that with these sites, you wouldn't be able to find needles on the ground. you say that like you can just look anywhere and find a needle in 2 minutes.

there is no solution, there's only self serving people making themselves feel good when really they are no help.

I don't care about tax dllars being wasted on junkies in safe sites or hospitals or ambulances or whatever.

so because it's hard, we give up?

My problem is with the fact these people are not being helped as there is now way to help a junkie whatsoever.

The only way a junkie is saved is by themselves.

everyone knows you can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped. but being ready to help when they do want it is part of the solution.

You think helping them get fucked up safely is really the answer !?

Like I said you might as well give paedos a hotel room and some kids.

Society is so eager to help and do good it just does more harm in it's blind selfish ignorance.

It's sad/pathetic/reprehensible...ad infinitum.

no one has ever said insite is a cure. it's not, but it helps cut down on incidental costs.

[Hot Karl]

Originally Posted by C_squared

ms. myra & diva can continue being total cunts... I really don't care. Fact of the matter is...both sides of the political spectrum have no real solutions to this problem. Don't try to sound off like you have the real answer, because you don't. A junkie is a fucking junkie, no matter what your 2 cents are. Whatever our government(s) are doing, is simply not enough. Whether the junkie sanctuary is in place or not, we're still going to have a problem. We have too many problems and not enough solutions.

less diseases? go fuck yourself... there's still a problem. I'm huge pessimist about Van City looking like a shitstye and having NO snow in 2010... watch for the embarrassment.

WE HAVE A PROBLEM,
WE HAVE A PROBLEM,
WE HAVE A PROBLEM,
WE HAVE A PROBLEM,
WE HAVE A PROBLEM,
WE HAVE A PROBLEM,
WE HAVE A PROBLEM,
WE HAVE A PROBLEM,

there is NO solutions, just deterrents from the real problem....

I amn liberal about most things, but this topics isn't one of those things...

wow. you've once again showed your phenomenal ignorance. but i guess being a lousy drunk has given you plenty of experience with foot in mouth disease.

really, is that how you respond to well thought out posts that aren't opinions, but facts?

dude, you called 2 smart ladies of fnk the c word. absolutely pathetic.

*if there's a junkie here its you. every 2nd post is of you drinking, drunk or going to get drunk. we get it, you like to fucking drink. now go get some help. and when your liver fails, i expect you to tough it out on the streets. because junkies like you don't deserve help.

[C_squared]

^ I'll look sincerely look into that thx.

[decypher]

to clear things up:

Darwinian is natural selection, random street stabbings is Hobbesian.

Either way they are both narcissistic and don't really bolster an argument against Insite.

Although i do respect your nihilist views esoteric, some people just have a different outlook.

[miss.myra]

Originally Posted by Hot Karl

*if there's a junkie here its you. every 2nd post is of you drinking, drunk or going to get drunk. we get it, you like to fucking drink. now go get some help. and when your liver fails, i expect you to tough it out on the streets. because junkies like you don't deserve help.

amen!

[Senior]

While I can't say that I'm surprised by the level of white noise in this thread I still do find it saddening. By white noise I mean the spewing stream of uniformed opinions passed off as factually based arguments.

The bigger question here is do we as a society believe in helping each other when we have made a mistake? Do people stricken with lung cancer, diabetes, or other diseases deserve our help? Does a speeding driver that crashes their car deserve our help? The truth is that the cancer patient or sufferer of diabetes could have made just as many poor decisions leading to their demise as a heroin junkie. Poor diets with to much sugar are the leading cause of adult onset diabetes. Over 50% of heavy smokers will develop lung cancer and it's no stretch of the imagination to see why a speeding driver has led to their own demise.

The problem of this debate is that people are often not willing to admit that their own problems could be just as bad as another. The basic concept I'm getting at is moral relativism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativism where people refuse to use a universal principle of ethics with which to approach problems. In this case heroin addiction is looked down on as being a worse disease than say cancer even though both are often self inflicted. Perhaps opponents of harm reduction would suggest that anyone determined responsible for their own demise deserves no help and should be left to die in alleys?

We need to look at what works best to deal with these problems and you are beyond blind if you think Prohibition is the best answer. The only so to say successful examples of Prohibition could be found in totalitarian societies where the expenses are minimized. In a totalitarian society the simple accusation of drug dealing or in some cases even use could be grounds for execution. This is a quick and simple solution to the problem. However if we still hold faith in the institution of law and the right to a fair trial before a jury no such solution shall be found. The cost of enforcing, prosecuting, and then imprisoning people in a free society to stop drug use is astronomical and by simple example of the US does not solve the problem. In fact one of the few known results of the American war on drugs has been a massive increase in their price and subsequently the profits to be made by their distribution.


Take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harm_reduction for a pretty good outline on harm reductions principles. As an example designated driver programs and distribution of condoms are also approaches of harm reduction.

Can anyone on this board honestly say they have never engaged in a form of self destructive behavior?

$500,000/yr [http://www.vch.ca/sis/faq.htm ] is a drop in the bucket! If we could quantify where the government put the rest of your tax dollars (all the money spent on beaurocratic bullshit, etc) you naysayers would be up in arms!

The bottom line is, it seems to be helping [http://www.vch.ca/sis/research.htm ] and it's a gateway to detox & councelling.

For those people saying, "Put the money into prevention", look into the basic philosophy surrounding the "four pillars" [harm reduction, enforcement, treatment and prevention]. Harm reduction simply supplements the other 3.

[prozac]

Originally Posted by Hot Karl

wow. you've once again showed your phenomenal ignorance. but i guess being a lousy drunk has given you plenty of experience with foot in mouth disease.

really, is that how you respond to well thought out posts that aren't opinions, but facts?

dude, you called 2 smart ladies of fnk the c word. absolutely pathetic.

*if there's a junkie here its you. every 2nd post is of you drinking, drunk or going to get drunk. we get it, you like to fucking drink. now go get some help. and when your liver fails, i expect you to tough it out on the streets. because junkies like you don't deserve help.

fuck man, that was out of line and just as pathetic.

[esoter1c]

Originally Posted by decypher

to clear things up:

Darwinian is natural selection, random street stabbings is Hobbesian.

Either way they are both narcissistic and don't really bolster an argument against Insite.

Although i do respect your nihilist views esoteric, some people just have a different outlook.

Nihilist !?

:285:

[fable]

Originally Posted by prozac

fuck man, that was out of line and just as pathetic.

Id say if his comment was unprovoked then yes, the comment would be out of line, but considering that the comment was directed at someone who's bashing safe injections sites, using prejudiced terminology, and does in fact post up a large amount of threads having to do with being shitfaced, or having a large amount of other people posting about him, id say the respective comment was justified, even in light of your freindship with carlos.

[fable]

I think apathetic, cynical or hostile attitudes towards active drug users is expected and common. Usually when it comes from intelligent people, it comes from a place of severe demoralization, and when it comes from ignorant people, it stems from a lack of inexperience within the respective subject.

I think the comments from squared and 35u5-32u5 would be somewhat acceptable if there wasn’t such hostile or prejudiced comments used, but in light of the fact that there was I have to say that its pretty sad. Both of you cats are come off as smart and experienced, Squared - you sound like a uncle tom and 3325u239u5-2 -you sound like a bitter, jaded reactionary.

I've used the c-word a few times in my life and I have great regret as a consequence. It is probably, singularly the most misogynistic word in existence. Words like "junkie" and "hoe" are also equally prejudiced and dehumanizing.

But in the end you are entitled to your opinions, but you are not entitled to be free from having said opinions challenged or exposed. Comments about costing tax payers extra dollars are out of context, and in light of far greater tax payer expenditures, essentially irrelevant.

Comments about dealing with core issues are spot on, except you have to ask yourself -what are the core issues? Is it drug awareness, or does it have to do with issues of capitalism/poverty, structural racism, and oppression?

I have witness a great hostility or ignorance of people towards drug addicts and such, from people on this board who either blinded by their comfortable middle class existence or no longer want to be reminded by an environment that they know well, but now choose to suppress or ignore such experiences. Both stances are disgusting, but allowable. What will NOT or SHOULD NOT be allowable is the dehumanizing comments or all out hostility. Anyone who exploits, or abuses a homeless person/ drug addict is not a human themselves, or a "man" or "tough"

I dont think the safe injection site is the end all, be all, and sometimes I wonder if it runs the risk of pacifying a population in thinking our countries powers that be really give a shit about impoverished peoples or drug addicts, But in the course of a battle you don’t discount or surrender victories along the way, no matter the relative insignificance of such victories.

The true danger of this discussion or those like it, is that the general population fight with each other, while the perpetuators of root causes laugh all the way to the bank.

Albeit brief, the time spent on the streets of the DTES with a rig in my arm, and my heart smashed on the pavement, have succeeded in reminding me how bad things can get, and how truly lucky I am to be alive. Although its reactionary in itself, I have approached everyone who I thought was outright abusing a drug user of homeless person on the street. Sick fucks like those who throw homeless people into dumpsters, or let homeless people degrade themselves for money, will face up to such actions someday, whether its karma, hell or a repeated shots to face with a baseball bat, such people will get theirs. I believe this with all my heart(that’s left).

[esoter1c]

Originally Posted by fable

3325u239u5-2 -you sound like a bitter, jaded reactionary.

[fable]

Originally Posted by 3507321C

You may be a master of finding great images, but this one is off base. Im REACTIVE, not reactionary, Im not demoralized but galvanized and im not bitter, Im angry.

I attack those who I think are ignorant, oppressive or assholes. I dont go after active drug users, I dont toss them in dumpsters and I sure as fuck dont think they should die, or present darwinisms as explanation or legitimizing.

You did get the memo about Darwin and his most of theories being complete and utterly devoid of context right?

[esoter1c]

Originally Posted by fable

You may be a master of finding great images, but this one is off base. Im REACTIVE, not reactionary, Im not demoralized but galvanized and im not bitter, Im angry.

I attack those who I think are ignorant, oppressive or assholes. I dont go after active drug users, I dont toss them in dumpsters and I sure as fuck dont think they should die, or present darwinisms as explanation or legitimizing.

You did get the memo about Darwin and his most of theories being complete and utterly devoid of context right?

Darwin > Fable.

[prozac]

Originally Posted by fable

Id say if his comment was unprovoked then yes, the comment would be out of line, but considering that the comment was directed at someone who's bashing safe injections sites, using prejudiced terminology, and does in fact post up a large amount of threads having to do with being shitfaced, or having a large amount of other people posting about him, id say the respective comment was justified, even in light of your freindship with carlos.

hey fable..... you of all people should know what it's like to have a substance abuse problem. Would it be fair if I brought that up as an argument to whatever you were saying, everytime I disagreed with you? I''ll be the first to say carlos' comments were over the line....HOWEVER continuing to bash him about substance abuse is the most hypocrital, anti-productive thing anyone on this board could do. ESPECIALLY in regards to this thread.

edit:

obviously...but I'll just clarify for ppl who havent been following the thread...i totally disagree with carlos' views on this topic..........doesn't make it ok to personally bash the guy.....

I find it ironic that several of the people on this site, who post regularly about their drug use hold themselves in higher regard then the drug users on the DTES.

Drug use, is drug use, is drug use. Just because you are a weekend warrior doesn't make you any better than those that do it all week long.

[zarlon]

Originally Posted by Avana

I find it ironic that several of the people on this site, who post regularly about their drug use hold themselves in higher regard then the drug users on the DTES.

Drug use, is drug use, is drug use. Just because you are a weekend warrior doesn't make you any better than those that do it all week long.

Hear, hear.

[decypher]

Senior's comment on subjective vs. objective morality really is the core of this whole argument. But it sure is fun arguing anyway. :)

socially accepted drug-use vs. non socially accepted drug-us is subjective to a societies views. The means of which to treat such drug-use is also subjective to the personal views and experiences of others.

[Only_Glory]

Originally Posted by thechix0r

I really hope he cans it, quite frankly it's things that like that suck out the money from Canada, instead the should be investing in places that have programs for these people, to get them on their feet and eventually out back into the real world and people that can do something with themselves. Same with welfare... sorry but if I can go out and get a job, then so can anyone else. It's not that difficutl and the governmetn could provide centres where people can make up a resume and be helped in that way, not help them feed their addiction in a safe manner.

Regardless, there are going to be drugs users always, but I don't think have centres where they can do their drugs in a safe way is the best decision....

it is possible that someone already replied to your comment, but i didnt care to read past what you said.

point of this program is to help people. let me explain..
druggiest are addicted to drugs ---> drugs control the druggies ---> program helping druggies control drugs ---> druggies can now somewhat control their lives ---> druggies are able to get job.


a program like this has been launched in europe before. its unorthodox, liberal and been proven effective.

peace and love gangstas

[fable]

Originally Posted by prozac

hey fable..... you of all people should know what it's like to have a substance abuse problem. Would it be fair if I brought that up as an argument to whatever you were saying, everytime I disagreed with you? I''ll be the first to say carlos' comments were over the line....HOWEVER continuing to bash him about substance abuse is the most hypocrital, anti-productive thing anyone on this board could do. ESPECIALLY in regards to this thread.

edit:

obviously...but I'll just clarify for ppl who havent been following the thread...i totally disagree with carlos' views on this topic..........doesn't make it ok to personally bash the guy.....

Your comment is completely irrelvent, and the connection with my or my own issues have no fucking bearing. You wouldnt bring up my past, because I never have written threads where it would be an issue. The only reason you would bring up my past, would be to paint me as braindead or mentally deficient enough(as a result of my substance abuse) that my remarks have no basis. In which case I promise you I would shred any argument you make.

You are right about suggesting that it would be hypocritical if I bashed him and hence why I HAVENT bashed him about whatever substance abuse problem he has or may have. More importantly I did not realize he had accepted such a problems existance or that his freinds have.

Bashing would also be indicative of something way worse than two small statements in two seperate posts. Who ever commented in the first place was probably reacting to the fact the Csquared was blasting out inhumane, ignorant and hateful remarks. In such a case, I think the heat of such a condemnation of Csquared is effectively nullified.

If the person in question really does have a problem then protecting his name on a public board is the least of either of your worries.

[fable]

Originally Posted by 3507321C

Darwin > Fable.

context > 3507321
objective conditions > 3507321
relevancy > 3507321
perspective > 3507321

cynasism + demoralization = 3507321


:pope:

[C_squared]

in my diffense getting drunk and causing a scene (vs) shooting smack and spreading desiases WAY 2 different things. even tho what hot karl said was a bit harsh I still very much respect his upfront honesty, cause at some point in your life you just have to self-reflect about all the bad shit one does to themselves.They have video-game detoxes in Holland for fuck sakes! everything is subjective as senior said. Socialy acceptable vs not so much... A bit hypocytical topic coming from a raver forum, yes but that's been adressed already.

that's all i really have say about this now... this is a pretty depressing topic.