vancouver's safe injection site - insite

[sidekick]

i'm really glad that this thread has brought up so much debate. i think education on what the safe injection site does, how much it costs and also what it DOESN'T do (which is solve the whole problem) is really important.

if we could just stop this back-and-forth bashing and google-image-searching, that would be nice.

i know some of you here have little or no faith in government as a course of action, but it would be good i think for this issue to contact local government officials, etc.. and press them on the issue. i hope that our mayor, the VPD and vancouver coastal health are all going to be fighting for insite, since they all support it, i can't see why they wouldn't. it's important, i think, for harper's government to understand how essential a lot of people think this is to our community in vancouver, and that he needs to take a closer look at the research showing the effectiveness of insite.

there are always going to be those that oppose progressive and hard to wrap your head around concepts like safe injection sites. i just hope that these people understand that it's not a cure all and no one is saying it is. that drug addiction is a larger problem that needs to be tackled on many sides, one of which is harm reduction.

[tiedye]

so.. any chance I could get free heroine.. pretend to shoot up, and sell it to closet junkies?

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by tiedye

so.. any chance I could get free heroine.. pretend to shoot up, and sell it to closet junkies?

the safe injection site doesn't provide them with drugs, just clean needles and other injection equipment. they bring their own stuff.

Comments about costing tax payers extra dollars are out of context...

It's not irrelevant. This thread is about the government discontinuing funding for insite; something that Canadian taxpayers are ultimately paying for.

and in light of far greater tax payer expenditures, essentially irrelevant.

Making comparisions can sometimes help qualify the numbers:

[ http://www.taxpayer.com/main/news.php?news_id=2223 ]

[wishbone]

This thread has been one of the better discussions i've seen on this forum.

Do I have a standpoint? No, I won't claim to fence sit, but I guess I am, as theres people this place helps, but I feel the majority of the people who use this place are not truly being helped.

Does itmake a difference? For some, yes. That's my take.

Regardless I'm just impressed at the level of insight everyone's given.

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by fable

But in the course of a battle you don’t discount or surrender victories along the way, no matter the relative insignificance of such victories.

i don't think that the opening of the safe injection site was an insignificant victory. the four pillars approach was a huge step in the right direction for toning down the policing and bad attitude toward drug addicts and residents of the DTES within the police force and our local government. again, not going to solve the problem fully, but definitly not an insignificant victory.

[fable]

Originally Posted by Junglist

It's not irrelevant. This thread is about the government discontinuing funding for insite; something that Canadian taxpayers are ultimately paying for.



Making comparisions can sometimes help qualify the numbers:

[ http://www.taxpayer.com/main/news.php?news_id=2223 ]

Its irrelevent when considering Canadian tax dollars are being used in much higher frequencies in other arenas that see a much higher amount of profit for a reletive few. Comparisons are a good thing, but in light of peoples ignorance of the true nature of homlessness/rampant drug addiction in this city, the numbers only serve to negetively impact peoples perception. Most cats understandabley want to live comfortabley, in reletive safety, put food on the table, take care of their loved ones, and have some fun from time to time. If said person is unaware of the systemic problems that rage on within an area such as the DTES, then telling that person that their tax dollars support a safe injection site, however small would be reactionary. If we want to educate, lets educate about what the real situation is.

[tiedye]

Originally Posted by sidekick

the safe injection site doesn't provide them with drugs, just clean needles and other injection equipment. they bring their own stuff.

I didn't know that. But I suppose it makes perfect sense

Originally Posted by wizzfish

Regardless I'm just impressed at the level of insight everyone's given.

That's actually pretty true. I don't have an opinion on safe injection sites, since I'm not well educated on the details of them, and because I'm not a heroine junkie. So I kept my comments to a minimum.

[fable]

Originally Posted by sidekick

i don't think that the opening of the safe injection site was an insignificant victory. the four pillars approach was a huge step in the right direction for toning down the policing and bad attitude toward drug addicts and residents of the DTES within the police force and our local government. again, not going to solve the problem fully, but definitly not an insignificant victory.

I support the Safe Injection Site, as a temporary resolve in the face of a situation that is far bigger, far more systemic, and ultimately far more sinister that many people outside of impoverished communities believe.

The Four Pillars was a joke, and I liken support of such bullshit empty PR Campaigns to the legislative support of the Indian Act. Its true purpose was pacification of the masses, nothing more, and nothing less. It involved careerists, politicians, and corrupt police officers. It praised such corrupt organizations as the Portland Hotel Society. It ignored systemic oppression of Indigenous peoples, it ignored police brutality, it ignored corrupt slum hotels/owners, it ignored the blatant under funding of Cordova Detox and several other drug abuse/mental health support centers.

The four pillars was a developers wet dream, and cleared the conscious of millions of middle to upper class citizens who’s only real experience with the DTES or true poverty was seeing homeless people turn tricks in front of the Lotus /Sonar / Club 23 / Shine / 7 Alexander / Loft Six. This ignorance combined with a lack of effort to really educate oneself or a resistance to facing up to savage truths is why the Four Pillars is even around.

If our government both provincially and federally are unable or unwilling to face up the roots causes of the situation that face millions, then everything else is window dressing, and for the explicit purpose of making us regular folk believe that we are supporting something humane.

The truly sad reality is that we are in positions that we must defend the four pillars concept. It, like the Indian act, is oppressive and reactionary, but still better than the alternative. I do not understand how someone could think that the Four Pillars act is a point in a positive evolution if that person or community isn’t fighting alongside Active Drug Users and the Impoverished/Homeless. The Four Pillars gave way to such violent and oppressive legislature as the Safe Streets Act, which gave police officers carte blanche in their response methods, which included starlight tours and simply bashing someone’s head in.

Support of the Four Pillars Act has less to do with wanting to make significant and positive change and everything to do with sweeping the problem under the carpet and without a congruent support of grassroots struggle, is more harm than good.

[fable]

Originally Posted by tiedye

so.. any chance I could get free heroine.. pretend to shoot up, and sell it to closet junkies?

ease up homie, your misinformed.

[sidekick]

fable, your favourite word is reactionary, eh?

i never said the four pillars was going to solve everything, i just said that it was a step in the right direction. away from the criminalization of the poor and over policing of drug addicts in the DTES. we still have a long way to go. i disagree with your overly cynical view of public policies. yeah, there are hidden motives behind everything and there are hidden problems with each solution, but at least we're moving in the right direction. society can't do a 180...shifts in society's ways of thinking take time. the debate around the safe injection site is evidence that these shifts take time. you may call these people ignorant, but when the media and your government has been showing drug addicts as criminals for so long, when you start to try to change that image there is going to be resistance.

i agree that the root causes must be looked at. the four pillars isn't the solution, again, it's part of the larger solution that we are still searching for. anything that shows DTES residents as people rather than criminals is a step forward from what was there before.

the safe injection site and the four pillars approach is not there to pacify the middle class, as there was a lot of uprising against the implimentation of both. the vancouver government had to convince people that this was the right way to go.

nothing is going to happen overnight. i wish it could, but it's too complicated for that.

[fable]

Originally Posted by sidekick

fable, your favourite word is reactionary, eh?

i never said the four pillars was going to solve everything, i just said that it was a step in the right direction. away from the criminalization of the poor and over policing of drug addicts in the DTES. we still have a long way to go. i disagree with your overly cynical view of public policies. yeah, there are hidden motives behind everything and there are hidden problems with each solution, but at least we're moving in the right direction. society can't do a 180...shifts in society's ways of thinking take time. the debate around the safe injection site is evidence that these shifts take time. you may call these people ignorant, but when the media and your government has been showing drug addicts as criminals for so long, when you start to try to change that image there is going to be resistance.

i agree that the root causes must be looked at. the four pillars isn't the solution, again, it's part of the larger solution that we are still searching for. anything that shows DTES residents as people rather than criminals is a step forward from what was there before.

the safe injection site and the four pillars approach is not there to pacify the middle class, as there was a lot of uprising against the implimentation of both. the vancouver government had to convince people that this was the right way to go.

nothing is going to happen overnight. i wish it could, but it's too complicated for that.

I use reactionary when the situation defines it. Your comments illustrate such a situation. You speak from a place of relative misinformation and inexperience. Go talk to people living in the DTES or better yet, live with them for a while and ask them what THEY think of the Four Pillars. Study up on the corruption within housing organizations. Read up on the cutbacks to welfare related programs, substance abuse programs and mental health facilities.

You have witnessed the rampant development in the area?

And you do understand the basis of gentrification?

You do realize that a developer has the option to buy out from the city stipulation that asks developers to set aside 20% of new developments for low-income housing?

You do realize the Safe Streets act is still in practice?

You do realize that the VPD have obtained even more collective power to do what they feel in the neighborhood?

You do realize that substance addiction, mental health issues, and homelessness all stem in one shape or another from poverty, racism, structural oppression and violence? And in understanding this, you realized that the Four Pillars concept barely even touches the surface of these issues?

Cynical views? Come on mate, use your head, or at least pick up a dictionary. Im active, and involved, almost 75% of life is committed to social justice/political movements, and therefore I would be incapable of being cynical. Overtly critical - yes, Suspicious - yes, overly emotive –why not, militant – of course, aggressive – no doubt, angry – was there ever a doubt? but NOT cynical.

Public Policy? What does this term mean to you? Do "Public Policies" really include a majority of community interaction or control? How much of the active drug user population do you think had their concerns considered when making relative policy?

"There was a lot of uprising" Are you serious? Where? Who? I paid very close attention and perhaps your notion of "uprising" is different from mine. A few heated words from public interest groups, and some tough words from politician’s means nothing.

I understand quite well about patience, so your last comment is simply redundant at best and condescending at worst. But through the history of this country and this world, social policy constructed in parliament, and containing only the smallest of public involvement usually only focus on the interests of developers, business, and the middle to upper class communities that are the largest consumers of the products such developers and businesses create, whether its retail or real-estate.

The very people that are marginalized and oppressed by bullshit policies are the very people who are kept away from any decision making possible. The homeless and addicted community in this city by and large do not have the means to carry on a consitant fight for basic rights- whether political and social. Its this reason why the working masses have to lend support, except they are to busy either dictating how said impoverished and addicted communities should operate, or being fed a fairytale notion of how government will make everything better and there is no need for guilt or worry.

Lets get something really really clear here jake. Working/poor people make up the largest population of the worlds communites, and until they have the power that is indicative of their numbers, public policy belongs to a population that is generally small, rich and could care less if a addict chocked to death on their own vomit.

[sidekick]

fable, you're as easy to predict as the sun rising each morning.

Originally Posted by fable

I use reactionary when the situation defines it. Your comments illustrate such a situation. You speak from a place of relative misinformation and inexperience.

once again, fable, your assumptions about other people's lack of knowledge and experience completely undercuts your arguments. you assume that anyone with a relatively different viewpoint than you is reactionary and under educated.

i'm not going to be dragged into the age-old fnk argument with you. we've done that too many times. obviously we just think different. that doesn't mean i'm under educated or stupid or reactionary, it just means that we have different opinions.

Study up on the corruption within housing organizations. Read up on the cutbacks to welfare related programs, substance abuse programs and mental health facilities.

i have.

You have witnessed the rampant development in the area?

yup.

And you do understand the basis of gentrification?

sure do.

You do realize the Safe Streets act is still in practice?

i do. lorne mayoncourt is an asshole then and now.

You do realize that substance addiction, mental health issues, and homelessness all stem in one shape or another from poverty, racism, structural oppression and violence? And in understanding this, you realized that the Four Pillars concept barely even touches the surface of these issues?

what do you think they teach in sociology classes? it's exactly everything you've just said. (not saying that going to school and being in sociology classes means that i have total understanding, just that those things you talk about are talked about all the time) we even read an article this year on why the four pillars isn't a problem solving solution. that there are much systemic problems with our society, stemming from neo-liberal policies and cutbacks in social programs, as well as a desolving of community.

anyyyyyway. i have looked into this a lot. i'm not claiming to know the answer, or know everything there is to know. i had a cousin who was living down there for quite some time. we weren't sure if she was a live or dead (she's alive and contacted us a few months ago, thank god). i know the four pillars isn't a cure. i said that i think like ten times already. i do believe that there are deeper issues that society needs to address.

we can always just agree to disagree. like we normally do anyway.

[fable]

fable, you're as easy to predict as the sun rising each morning.

Yes that’s probably true. mainly because as a result of challenging my own beliefs(to the point of madness) and putting things into context my politics are relatively solid and not as schizophrenic as some peoples may be.

once again, fable, your assumptions about other people's lack of knowledge and experience completely undercuts your arguments. you assume that anyone with a relatively different viewpoint than you is reactionary and under educated.

Straight cop out! The only thing that undercuts anyone’s arguments is the fact that you presume to know the intimate details of environments or history that you have no direction connection or interaction with. I give you factual realities and situations, and you make excuses. Jake you need to be more critical, you need to be more challenging, and you need to get involved. Your comments are sterile, and academic.

i'm not going to be dragged into the age-old fnk argument with you. we've done that too many times. obviously we just think different. that doesn't mean i'm under educated or stupid or reactionary, it just means that we have different opinions.

I didn’t say you as a person were reactionary or uneducated and I sure as hell never called you stupid, but I am calling you out in terms of your relative inexperience or involvement in the specific topic.

i have.
yup.
sure do.

I don’t believe you. Nothing you’ve said thus far legitimizes any of your viewpoints.

i do. lorne mayoncourt is an asshole then and now.

Sure he is, and so are we, for letting the Safe Streets act exist relatively unmolested.

what do you think they teach in sociology classes? it's exactly everything you've just said. (not saying that going to school and being in sociology classes means that i have total understanding, just that those things you talk about are talked about all the time) we even read an article this year on why the four pillars isn't a problem solving solution. that there are much systemic problems with our society, stemming from neo-liberal policies and cutbacks in social programs, as well as a desolving of community.

Come on Jake, you study this shit in class, while others live it, or at the very least get involved.

anyyyyyway. i have looked into this a lot. i'm not claiming to know the answer, or know everything there is to know. i had a cousin who was living down there for quite some time. we weren't sure if she was a live or dead (she's alive and contacted us a few months ago, thank god). i know the four pillars isn't a cure. i said that i think like ten times already. i do believe that there are deeper issues that society needs to address.

Im sorry if the following cuts too deep, but what is it going to take for you to get DIRECTLY involved in the struggle as opposed to talking about it over coffee in the SUB? When your cousin dies? When a few angry and frustrated VPD beats your cousin to death. Or when your cousin no longer can pay rent at any of the shithole apartments downtown, and decides to throw themselves down the stairs? Or when your cousin takes a few draws of crack that’s only one buff down from the fresh off the boat pure stuff and goings into cardiac arrest?

we can always just agree to disagree. like we normally do anyway.

I don’t need to agree to fuck all. Im tired of seeing intelligent, caring young people like yourself thinking that pleasant debate in a lecture hall is the end all be all of public policy change. You got hella brains and far more of a heart than most people on this board, and yet you are comfortable with talking like someone who sits on the fence and is unwilling to tarnish their own good name or pleasant disposition. Sometimes you need to crawl in the piss and shit and vomit of the very ones who need support and solidarity, before you have any hope of understanding them or fighting for them.

[sidekick]

you call my comments sterile, and i call yours narcissistic and self-indulgent.

same old same old.

it seems like you just enjoy turning every thread you touch into a lesson to everyone where you are the godly teacher that has come down from revolutionary heaven to impart your advice on how well we are leading our lives.

i don't have anything to prove to you about anything i do in my life (which you have no idea about, anyway, even though you seem to think you do).
i'm not going to feel bad that i'm attending school and focussing on my education. i may not be as involved as you right now, but you have this wrong image of me as a person that sits around and talks about 'the real world' in some kind of masturbatory intellectual cafe on campus.

all i wanted to do is see what other people thought about the safe injection site closing. simple as that. then i disagree with you one tiny bit on one issue (essentially we really believe in the same things) and all your guns turn on me.

i don't need you to enlighten me, but thanks for trying. i'm 21 years old, still stepping into the world, and will find my own path.

overandout.

[SEAN!]

who cares whats socially acceptable, just look at the numbers. There are less deaths, over doses, and infections requiring hospital visits because of this p[rogram. There are also qualitiative changes, detox and counselling programs are now more accessible to the peoiple that need them and the downtown eastside dosnt have as many junkies shooting drugs in public.

If any thing the program should be expanded, not shut down. it dosnt make sense to shut the program down, its simply motiviated by short sighted ideology.

[sidekick]

^i think Victoria, over on the island is considering starting their own up. that is, if they're allowed.

[SEAN!]

Originally Posted by sidekick

^i think Victoria, over on the island is considering starting their own up. that is, if they're allowed.

yeha its just that suckah mc harper being the suckah mc he is.


man do i love the label suckah mc

p.s im sure that jakey will accomplish far more in the way of improving social conditions for the oppresed then fable could ever do. Fable's boundless enthusiasm and sense of identity as an activist still cannot compensate for the unfocused mania and self absorbtion, hopefully that will change in the future.

[sidekick]

maybe we should use that instead of MP?

[SEAN!]

Originally Posted by sidekick

maybe we should use that instead of MP?

hahah yeah

he would be the right honorable suckah mc stephen harper.


i always thought stephan was pronounced stef-an not steven.

[Senior]

Originally Posted by SEAN!

who cares whats socially acceptable, just look at the numbers. There are less deaths, over doses, and infections requiring hospital visits because of this p[rogram. There are also qualitiative changes, detox and counselling programs are now more accessible to the peoiple that need them and the downtown eastside dosnt have as many junkies shooting drugs in public.

If any thing the program should be expanded, not shut down. it dosnt make sense to shut the program down, its simply motiviated by short sighted ideology.

Quoted for the first time I've agreed with you on anything political.

[BongMan]

I think that the program has done much good and should be expanded, no one wants to find a needle in theire driveway.

[Goat]

The bottom line is healthcare is about the preservation of human life regardless of skin colour, income bracket, and personal lifestyle.

Are you going to condemn a junky, someone still filled with unlimited potential, to death because they happen to overdose? For all you know they may turn out to be the next Ghandi or Mother Teressa. Let alone the potential to help and/or save someone else in the future. That's some heavy ethical shit.

Apply that same logic to the safe injection site - the preservation of human life, and ya, it'll save tax dollars to.

It costs $1000 a day for a bed in hospital
It costs $150 just to send out for an ambulance (more if it's an advanced life support crew (als)
It costs $150 just to walk in and see a doctor
Let alone treatment and repeat visits.
Everyone who is overdosing is looking at a 12hour minimum wait, usually on Narcan. If they're worse it easily stretches into a day and half to two day observation period.
That's bare minimum a $1500 tax payers are shelling out, $2500 (more like $3000) minimum for 2 days.

With the safe injection site, you're keeping needles out of alleys and helping prevent the spread of diseases like HIV and hep, just to name a few. And it's not just junkies that get these diseases, it's kids and people who clean our streets and municipal workers - Our brothers, sisters,uncles,daughters. mothers, and fathers.
Those bills, fighting hiv, hep, etc - even if they're in covered under health insurance, run in the millions and hundreds of millions of dollars, which tax payers end up paying

You're bitching about spending 1.2 million dollars to keep 17 nurses and councilors on staff not to just cut down on an hundred million dollar plus bill; you're fighting against the potential each and every one of us has to do great things in the world - To share, teach, love, and help others in their time of need.

How can you justify that?

[fable]

Originally Posted by SEAN!

yeha its just that suckah mc harper being the suckah mc he is.


man do i love the label suckah mc

p.s im sure that jakey will accomplish far more in the way of improving social conditions for the oppresed then fable could ever do. Fable's boundless enthusiasm and sense of identity as an activist still cannot compensate for the unfocused mania and self absorbtion, hopefully that will change in the future.

I dont identify myself as an activist any more than you identify yourself as a economist or capital scientist.

What exactly is unfocussed or manic about educatiing people about the importance of grassroots involvement? Where do we so the most significant social movements situated in history? The bank? The lecture hall? Within some status quo wet dream of social democracy? The Russian Revolution, The Vietnamese Revolution, Cuban revolution, Black Power movement all existed within common people at a street level.

How does one fight for, or improve the conditions of oppressed peoples, if one does not work with them? Or was your comment the same arrogance you always spout - the kind that comes from a pristine office, with no windows, but lots of self interest?

You drop in from time to time, make some irrelvent comment and bounce out. Why not actaully come to an event and share your knowledge or experience?

[fable]

Originally Posted by sidekick

you call my comments sterile, and i call yours narcissistic and self-indulgent.

same old same old.

it seems like you just enjoy turning every thread you touch into a lesson to everyone where you are the godly teacher that has come down from revolutionary heaven to impart your advice on how well we are leading our lives.

i don't have anything to prove to you about anything i do in my life (which you have no idea about, anyway, even though you seem to think you do).
i'm not going to feel bad that i'm attending school and focussing on my education. i may not be as involved as you right now, but you have this wrong image of me as a person that sits around and talks about 'the real world' in some kind of masturbatory intellectual cafe on campus.

all i wanted to do is see what other people thought about the safe injection site closing. simple as that. then i disagree with you one tiny bit on one issue (essentially we really believe in the same things) and all your guns turn on me.

i don't need you to enlighten me, but thanks for trying. i'm 21 years old, still stepping into the world, and will find my own path.

overandout.

Once again you chose to use irrelevant condemnations/ Narcissistic? How so? I work with oppressed communities, I’m living with my parents, I’m a recovering addict/alcoholic, my health is terrible, and I have a bad temper. Stop throwing out the first insult that comes to your mind, and THINK. You sound like the stereotypical middle class west end living, Caucasian with a hard on for Libby Davis, and utterly no comprehension of what it means to be oppressed which is kind of fucked up considering you are a gay male.

What is the point of education without using it to better humanity? What is the point of intellectual prowess if you do not apply it outside of your own selfish ass? You think I don’t know you? I think that you're lying, to me and to yourself.

I agree with a lot of your comments Jake. You tried to counter my point of the Safe Injection Site being relatively irrelevant in the context of tackling core issues, and then you turned around and basically quoted me. I personally think that you do not appreciate me correcting or challenging you at all, regardless of the relevancy of the challenge. If you continue this behavior, you may write great books, you may be on inspiring television shows, hell you may even have a park named after you, but don’t ever think for a second that your polite/PC/social democrat approach to social change is going to mean anything to oppressed peoples.

The safe injection site is necessary, and beneficial. It has been the direct reason why there are at least 10 addicts are still alive in the last year. The staff is amazing, hardworking and genuinely caring.

In the long run if the Safe Injection site is the best that we can do, than we wont achieve anything. Poverty is still growing, and so is racism, and until these are reversed alongside with a significant shift in the balance of power within ruling class and common folk, then the Safe Injection will be a tide break at best, and sooner or later it will fall.

How are you going to help make change when you always think in terms of yourself? You think in terms of seeing debate as a win/lose thing, instead of a life/death thing. I have no criticism of you being in school, but what I want to know is when the fuck are you going to apply what you learn on the streets?