Teachers Strike

[Esoteric]

This means my midterm is going to be November 1st instead of next week which really fucks me up since I am moving into a new house on Oct31.

You don't understand Mateo. The teachers are just concerned for your education... it's all worth it... or something.

[diva]

edit:I go to bcit and one of my classes is taken at the surrey campus whcih is actually Princess Margerat Highschool and that class is cancelled due to this strike(can't cross picket lines) . So right now the teachers aren't on my good side regardless of what the issue is. This means my midterm is going to be November 1st instead of next week which really fucks me up since I am moving into a new house on Oct31.

Mateo: talk to your instructor and explain the situation. most of them would give you an extension.
=)

[the_77x42]

2000-2001 Average Class size: 23.4 Students
2001-2002 Average Class size: 23.4 Students
2002-2003 Average Class size: 24.1 Students
2003-2004 Average Class size: 23.9 Students
2004-2005 Average Class size: 23.8 Students

These are the Vancouver School Board Numbers. In the 5 years since the Liberals took power the average class size has increased by 0.4 students.

Okay, this is VERY misleading.

1. The class sizes the Liberals imposed are different for primary grades. This data does not separate the different class sizes for each grade.

2. The Liberals never intended to 'raise class sizes'. What they did was remove a cap, but say that the AVERAGE needed to stay roughly the same. Some teachers get less kids, some teachers get more kids. Of course when you give averages, everything is going to look like nothing changed, when in fact some teachers are really getting the shaft because they have high numbers to make up for the lower number of students their colleagues teach.

Always, always, be weary of averages!!

[Joanne]

Originally Posted by fable

because really at the end of the we as a "community" should be supporting the people, that spend more time with kids, then their parents do, and the people who wipe our asses, and clean up our puke when we are unable too(nurses).

wow, you're really a fucking idiot.

[Tayfoon]

Every year or 2 the teachers ask for more money

When you choose a career, you know how much it pays, and what it takes

You dont just start asking for more money every fuckin year because you can, this is rediculous


When I was in highschool not 1 teacher has taught me anything usefull or anything I didnt already know, so why the fuck give them more money ?

[Ree Fresh]

Originally Posted by tvmann

originaly posted by Myra:

1 point for irony.


1 point for you looking like an ass seeing as how she has a legitimate excuse not to be able to spell perfectly (that's okay, I did it once myself.) funny thing is, the excuse she has not to spell so great is exactly what makes her passionate about what she does.

shame on you. kindly insert foot into mouth.


And what is that excuse?

Thanks Myra, I could'nt have said it better myself.

I don't like to use it as an excuse, but it's how I help ppl understand and give myself a better chance. I have and was born with a 'Learning Disability' I prefer to call it a Learning Diffrence. If you don't know there is a vast spectrum of diffrent levels and kinds of LD such as; Dyslexia, ADD/ADHD, sequence processing, focusing issues, in put work vs. out put work, short/long term memmory, selective ways of learning (visual/titactic/verbal) fine moter issues, what the eye sees does'nt match what the brain picks up etc etc... all these can lead into people having trouble with writing, reading, spelling, grammer, math and much more.

When going through school and college I had to try 2X-10X harder than most of my peers... only to find the same or lower results as them. Even though I may have learned just as much, attended more classes than them, done all the home work, and probly know more than them... its much harder for me to prove that on paper and with proper spelling and grammer.

I believe part of the reason I was hired to work in the schools is becuase I have LD. I can easly relate and help teach the students I work with alot of tricks and stratagies that most teachers and SEAs could never think of.

I've always thought that every one has a ballance of tallents and challenges. Ever wonder why the spelling B champ can't act? Or the foot ball captin can't read? Or how there are some ppl who arnt good at anything, but dont really suck at anything either. We all learn differently and have our own ways of showing what we know. Although I lack in my academics... I still do my job and do it extramly well... because like Myra said im extreamly passionate about what I do and believe in it.

MAYBE IF THERE WAS MORE FUNDING IN THE SCHOOLS I WOULD OF HAD MORE HELP WITH MY SPELLING AND GRAMMER? INSTEAD I WAS PASSED THROUGH CLASSES... I GUESS THEY JUST HOPED IT WOULD ONE DAY SINK IN OR MY NOT SO RICH PARENTS WOULD PAY FOR A TUTOR OR SYLVAN LEARNING CENTRE? --- Which I one day hope I can afford to go to before I attempt Uni

NOTE:
this post took over 25 minutes to write
I proof read it 4 times
surched over 12 words on dictionary.com


Anymore more questions tvman?

[Silverwinged]

Originally Posted by wellbelove's

NOTE:
this post took over 25 minutes to write
I proof read it 4 times
searched over 12 words on dictionary.com


Anymore more questions tvman?

:027:
you make me proud rhia.

[Ree Fresh]

Originally Posted by Esoteric

[size=-1][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica][size=1][color=#000000][size=2]2000-2001 Average Class size: 23.4 Students
2001-2002 Average Class size: 23.4 Students
2002-2003 Average Class size: 24.1 Students
2003-2004 Average Class size: 23.9 Students
2004-2005 Average Class size: 23.8 Students

Ahhhh stats... so funny and so not the real picture.

These stats of yours for example. Do they enclude primary class sizes as well? A Kindergarden class max is 15 and grades 1-3 are 20... so that kind of brings your class average down.

More important is what your not seeing. Yes there are some classes in highschool with only 10-15 kids in them...
HOWEVER those kids have behaviour, LD, and other issues that make them more work for the teacher (why its a smaller class)
Yet the teachers have to make up for that by agreeing to have other classes as large as 35-40 students.

[Ree Fresh]

Originally Posted by matéo

So does this involve post secondary instructors now?



edit:I go to bcit and one of my classes is taken at the surrey campus whcih is actually Princess Margerat Highschool and that class is cancelled due to this strike(can't cross picket lines) . So right now the teachers aren't on my good side regardless of what the issue is. This means my midterm is going to be November 1st instead of next week which really fucks me up since I am moving into a new house on Oct31.

Im really sorry how this stirke has effected you.

First of all please dont blame the teachers. Please do some resurch before you make such a nieve comment sucha as, "the teachers aren't on my good side regardless of what the issue is". If the goverment didnt put them in such a non nagociable state there would not be a strike. The teachers are risking $150,000.00 fines and jail.

Second of all, im loosing over $150.00 a day being locked out. I have car payments, insurence due soon, and plans to save up for school maybe this Jan. However im still going out at 9am every day and picketing with the teachers and showing them my suport. Although its selfishly hurting, I wont complain.

What the goverment is trying to do is also effecting alot of other unions and work places. Workers dont want to go on strike... so please respect them for taking a stand.

[mugsy]

^ werd.

my mom has a mortgage to pay every two weeks, plus food and bills. im giving her all that i can, but our family is at a loss if this goes past this week. i think cupe should hand out the regular $40 a day strike pay, that and cupe members should strike at the same time as the teachers with the shit that they have been through.

what scares me is that as soon as the teachers finally get both what they want and deserve, cupe might turn around a strike as well. they've gotten the shaft just as bad. (as im sure you know rhia)

[Ree Fresh]

^ Well weve been pretty lucky as we FINALY got our pay equity... when we thought we would probly never get it knowing the government. My only real complaint are our hours per week and being given teacher's jobs (huge no no) but we do it anyways. I think the only way will go on strike is if the government trys to pull a really shitty legislative contract with us.

Although we can apply for EI and are getting $10 a day for sighning in. After 10 days (including weekends) it goes up to $50 a day. But yeah looks like this stirke will go on next week. I dont know how single parents are going to handel this especialy the ones on strike!?!

[veN]

Rhia, you are my hero for being the resident educational support staff spokesperson! As many of you know, I too am an EA (aka SEA/CA/TA depending on district). Thank you dear for commenting on the issues at hand without complaining, or being condescending. I know that this is a huge issue that is effecting many many people, and much that can be said on it, but I don't feel the need to say much more as you have already explained our side of things so carefully. :)

[PsyTrance4Life]

hahahah saw my old high school teachers, horned 4 times

[justa~gurl]

Estoric.. i find your stats to be somewhat confusing... and i would rather believe what i know from the classes that i have seen and from people who i've spoken to about this topic.. .students themselves who say that not everyone in their class can even get a seat..

rather then believe what i read on a website..certified or not..

and by the looks of the population growth.. the classes growing by.03 % or whatever.. to me the math doesn't really add up.. although i was always horrible at that subject..


Wellbelove- I hold so much respect for you, i don't think what you wrote could have been anymore perfect! Passion is everything.. you can have all the intelligence, skill and ability in the world.. but without passion it's meaningless.. (imo)

Tayfoon.. nothing stays the same.. the price for everything raises all the time.. and they don't ask for more money every year.. well they might because they never get it..and if you work somewhere for a certain amount of time.. do you not ask for a raise?? why can't teachers? and the teachers that you had might not have taught you anything usefull.. but they teach you how to learn.,., it's not just the subject.. it's how to you use your brain..

[Esoteric]

So let me get this straight folks... the irrefutable numbers taken by civil servants in the ministry of education aren't good enough you'd rather just base your ideas on... what exactly?

No one is claiming that there are not examples of large classes. No one has ever said "large classes do not exist".

However, the BCTF ---HAS--- stated that class sizes have gone up. The numbers clearly show that is untrue.

There is no more discussion to be had. Just because you see 10 classes out of 20,000 and they seem larger to you doesn't mean you have a clue what you are talking about. 10 out of 20,000 is statistically insignificant.

I suspect not a single one of you has taken any kind of macro-economics course or public policy course or even has any experience working in the ministry of education where you have to deal with these issues. In fact, I bet most of you aren't even old enough to remember a government before the BC Liberals. You have nothing with which to compare this government.

You see something and you don't like it and you think you know what you are talking about.

The BCTF lies. They are self-serving. Their numbers are often fabricated.

Once more for those who have difficulty with logic: You cannot say class sizes are going up when they are the same size. You cannot say that removing class size limits from a labour contract negotiation harms children when clearly it has not.

Has a single one of you even gone to the ministry of education websight to, I dunno, do some research? Check your facts? Or would that be too much trouble for you?

[Esoteric]

As an adendum I'd like to point out that not a single person who disagrees with my numbers or my point of view has come up with -anything- substantial to rebutt what I have said.

Nothing.

All you guys seem to have is "I don't believe your numbers" or "numbers can be misleading". This tactic is used primarily by people who have no real arguement of their own and who cannot substantiate any of the claims they make.

"I saw a big class one time and it had over 30 students in it... class sizes are bigger in BC!"

Excellent logic :)

[veN]

Originally Posted by Esoteric

As an adendum I'd like to point out that not a single person who disagrees with my numbers or my point of view has come up with -anything- substantial to rebutt what I have said.

Nothing.

All you guys seem to have is "I don't believe your numbers" or "numbers can be misleading". This tactic is used primarily by people who have no real arguement of their own and who cannot substantiate any of the claims they make.

"I saw a big class one time and it had over 30 students in it... class sizes are bigger in BC!"

Excellent logic :)

You're right, I don't have concrete evidence to shove right back in your face that growing class sizes are of actual concern. I only have what I see EVERY DAY when I go to work. I see:

*23 students in what's supposed to be a 20 student MAX Primary classroom
*Resource/LA/ESL time CUT
*Library time CUT
*EA suport time CUT
*teachers having to teach more students than is considered reasonable
*teachers having more children with ADHD/ADD/ASD or other learning challenges without as much support to design IEPs much less carry them out

I understand you are skeptical, but please don't tell me that what I see/work/live isn't real, because I know what waits for me behind those doors when I go to work in the morning (well, y'know... when I DID go to work).

[the_77x42]

Originally Posted by Esoteric

However, the BCTF ---HAS--- stated that class sizes have gone up. The numbers clearly show that is untrue.

No, the numbers clearly show that it is untrue that the average class size has gone up. The BCTF has stated class sizes have gone up, but that is meant to be read as some class sizes have gone up.

Originally Posted by Esoteric

In fact, I bet most of you aren't even old enough to remember a government before the BC Liberals. You have nothing with which to compare this government.

Actually, the NDP was crappy to teachers as well. They were the ones who imposed the special needs kids in the classrooms in the first place. I never talked about the liberals.

Originally Posted by Esoteric

Once more for those who have difficulty with logic: You cannot say class sizes are going up when they are the same size.

Of course I can. You're talking about averages and I'm talking about certain cases.

Originally Posted by Esoteric

You cannot say that removing class size limits from a labour contract negotiation harms children when clearly it has not.

Sure it does. The teachers are pissed. Pissed off teachers don't do after-school programs and even strike! Doesn't that harm children?

Originally Posted by Esoteric

Has a single one of you even gone to the ministry of education websight to, I dunno, do some research? Check your facts? Or would that be too much trouble for you?

Unfortunately, both the BCTF and the ME have biased websites. The facts are skewed on both ends. You have provided 'facts' merely from one camp, and no one has done much to compare either.

Originally Posted by Esoteric

As an adendum I'd like to point out that not a single person who disagrees with my numbers or my point of view has come up with -anything- substantial to rebutt what I have said.

I did rebutt what you said. You're numbers are consistent with what the BCTF has said when you said they weren't.
My view is this: it's a labour dispute. People are pissed off about their working conditions and are doing something about it -- wouldn't you?

[Esoteric]

*23 students in what's supposed to be a 20 student MAX Primary classroom

That doesn't mean that's the norm. Again, while there are anecdotal examples of all of the BCTF's complaints, there is no evidence to suggest that it is widespread or out of control.

*Resource/LA/ESL time CUT
*Library time CUT
*EA suport time CUT

All of these are issues that I have not directly addressed because I agree with you. I don't believe any of those services should be cut. Having said that, we have double the number of ESL students we had a decade ago. That kind of growth is nearly impossible to sustain, plan for, or allocate resources to deal with. While I don't want to see "cuts" to any of those areas, only a fool would believe it possible to sustain a doubling of any given resource in a decade.

*teachers having to teach more students than is considered reasonable

Considered reasonable by whom? You have to set a limit somewhere. Who says that 28 is that much worse off than 25? The BCTF? I'm familliar with the studies that come to the conclusion that smaller class sizes are better but if that was all we considered than every child in this province would have their own personal tutor because that would give them the best education... but who would pay for that? I certainly don't want my taxes raised by another 25% to support such an endeavor.

*teachers having more children with ADHD/ADD/ASD or other learning challenges without as much support to design IEPs much less carry them out

Again, as with ESL there are more of them in society these days. Or perhaps what is more likely is that it is being diagnosed more appropriately now. I doubt we are seeing an epidemic of ADHD or the like, we are simply identifying it more readily. But again, these issues aren't a result of our government, they are social issues that can only be partially dealt with in schools.

I'm not trying to belittle your personal experience. I'm saying that you cannot form public policy based on anecdotes from individuals. You just can't govern that way. You have to look at the real numbers and make your best judgement from there.

The public purse only has so much money. If you want to put another 500 million into education, then you have to take it from something else. Do you want to explain to your grand-mother that she can't get a knee replacement this year because we wanted 22 student in a classroom instead of 25? Part of governing is looking things from a macro point of view.

No single teacher can do that no matter how much as I respect them...

[Goat]

So does this involve post secondary instructors now?

As far as I know, it doesn't. At least not at the college I attend. A teacher mentioned something about a different union. After shelling out this much $ I'd be choked if they went on strike.
I wouldn't doubt if it was that the teacher who is teaching your class is primarly employed through the highschool for highschool classes, not BCIT.

[Esoteric]

My last word before bedtime...

No, the numbers clearly show that it is untrue that the average class size has gone up. The BCTF has stated class sizes have gone up, but that is meant to be read as some class sizes have gone up.

Flawed logic. Your statement implies that SOME have gone up while none have gone down. But if only SOME had gone up while all the others were the same, then the AVERAGE would go up. So then some classes must now be smaller. Isn't that a good thing? For the last time, no one argues that in some cases there are larger class sizes. Governments in Victoria cannot make sure that every single class everywhere no matter what has X number of students. You simply cannot do that, there are regional concerns that take precedence over what Victoria wants. Schoolboards set their budgets and determine what the overall best way to manage the district is.

Of course I can. You're talking about averages and I'm talking about certain cases.

*sigh* You cannot base public policy on "certain cases".

Sure it does. The teachers are pissed. Pissed off teachers don't do after-school programs and even strike! Doesn't that harm children?

So let me see if I understand you correctly: anything teachers ask for should be granted because we don't want them to stop doing after school programs... and that is the GOVERNMENT that's hurting children? If a teacher is so immature that they need to punish their students for government policy, then I'm sorry I don't agree with that. That's taking children hostage for political and financial reasons.

Unfortunately, both the BCTF and the ME have biased websites. The facts are skewed on both ends. You have provided 'facts' merely from one camp, and no one has done much to compare either.

How are the civil servants who have worked for 25 years in the ministry for 5 different governments biased? ME numbers are based on facts with no political interference... the same CANNOT be said of BCTF numbers. Civil servants are NOT political entities. Their jobs do no depend on pleasing the government. A union leader's job DOES depend on pleasing their members. How do they please their members? More pay. Less work. You can dress it up any way you like but NOT ONE union leader will ever get elected with the slogan "work harder for less money so our children have a better future". It's NOT all about the children.

I did rebutt what you said. You're numbers are consistent with what the BCTF has said when you said they weren't.
My view is this: it's a labour dispute. People are pissed off about their working conditions and are doing something about it -- wouldn't you?

You haven't rebutted my points with a single shred of evidence. In my view that means you have not rebutted my points.

The BCTF has never said in any press release I'm familliar with that "some classes are growing in size while others are shrinking and we believe it's due to changing demographics and we realize that the government needs the flexibility to meet those changing demographics by removing the class size restrictions from the collective agreement". They consistantly claim that "class sizes" are larger BECAUSE OF government policies. Now I don't know about you, but when Jenny Sims, the head of the BCTF, says "class sizes are larger" I don't think to myself "oh she probably means just a few classes". She means that on the whole, on average, class sizes are larger.

As I have demonstrated, that is not the case.

Not only is it not the case, they [the BCTF] said that the reason the class sizes would go up is because it was no longer in the collective agreement. Well class sizes are no longer included in the collective agreement and STILL average class sizes have not increased by a significant statistical amount DESPITE what the teachers said.

I'm sorry but I have reasearch and logic on my side... who's in your corner?

[Goat]

First of all please dont blame the teachers. Please do some resurch before you make such a nieve comment sucha as, "the teachers aren't on my good side regardless of what the issue is". If the goverment didnt put them in such a non nagociable state there would not be a strike. The teachers are risking $150,000.00 fines and jail.

I can't see the government fining and imprisoning however many thousands of teachers there are in this province. When it comes to legislating teachers back to work (nursing situation last year or the year before comes to mind) people are going to have to question their priorities and ask themselves, "How much shit am I going to take?" I know there are jobs in other provinces and destinations throughout North America, maybe now is the time to explore some of those options.
If I were a recruiter from out of province/country I'd be all over this situation like fat people on lard. Also, there's a staggering demand for more and more blue collar jobs that offer competetive if not better wages. If this situation continues and gets worse - Ie: legislated back with no increase, class sizes remain the same/increase - individuals start to relocate and look into career changes.

Where will the government be then? Grades will drop, fewer people will wish to become teachers in the province of BC, classes sizes will increase the system will fall into a hole. Government would be failing miserably to not dump money into funding for teaching.

[miss.myra]

I know a lot of the people I love and respect are going to hate me for this but as they know I am not a union backer.

The issue here is that teachers are not getting the wage increase they have asked for from the government. Teachers would not be striking if the provncial government has adimantly refused to provide funding for schools for special education programs, reduction of class sizes, etc, otherwise this strike would have happened long ago. The reality here is that the public is not going to give teachers a whole lot of sympathy if the only things they were fighting for were wage increases and collective bargaining rights. The public outrage and sympathy is born out of outcries for things like class sizes, funding for special programs, etc. I am not saying that funding towards things like public education is good enough in BC because it isn't, but let's all get on the same page here that the primary issue at the end of the day is PAY INCREASES.

[the_77x42]

Originally Posted by Esoteric

Flawed logic. Your statement implies that SOME have gone up while none have gone down.

ARG! I knew I should have added this. Yes, you are absolutely right that the government can say, "Class sizes have gone down." This is absolutely FINE with me, and fine with the union. The problem is that the instances where class sizes have gone up, it's not fair to the teachers.

Originally Posted by Esoteric

*sigh* You cannot base public policy on "certain cases".

It's not public policy, it's a labour contract. And, yes, you can. If I'm the only labourer who is working in a class of 100 kids and everyone else has 20, then something is wrong and the union should fight for my rights.

Originally Posted by Esoteric

So let me see if I understand you correctly: anything teachers ask for should be granted because we don't want them to stop doing after school programs... and that is the GOVERNMENT that's hurting children?

I never said the government was hurting children! I never said anything about the government and I never said anything about kids. The government is hurting teachers, I believe the BCTF shouldn't bring kids into the fold.

Originally Posted by Esoteric

If a teacher is so immature that they need to punish their students for government policy, then I'm sorry I don't agree with that. That's taking children hostage for political and financial reasons.

After-school programs are not mandatory, but they provide good education for the kids. Teachers aren't 'punishing' kids by withholding them, they are merely trying to show that they go above and beyond the call of duty and look what happens when you screw them even further -- you are going to miss out. Call that immature, but what else can they do? Bargaining isn't working. They tried reasonable methods, they didn't get what they wanted, so why should they have to do anything for free AND get screwed doing it?

Originally Posted by Esoteric

How are the civil servants who have worked for 25 years in the ministry for 5 different governments biased? ME numbers are based on facts with no political interference...

This statement is absolutely wrong. Governments change ministries all the time. I work for one, I see what governments can do. Policy changes have a DIRECT impact on ministries. To say there is no political interference with ministries is nonesense. On top of that, I never said the numbers were WRONG, I only said the averages were MISLEADING.

Originally Posted by Esoteric

You can dress it up any way you like but NOT ONE union leader will ever get elected with the slogan "work harder for less money so our children have a better future". It's NOT all about the children.

As before, I said this was a labour dispute. It is not ALL about the children. Teachers care both about their pay and their children. However, I think bringing children into the discussion detracts from the main issue, which is pay and work conditions.

Originally Posted by Esoteric

You haven't rebutted my points with a single shred of evidence. In my view that means you have not rebutted my points.

Yes I have, you just keep misreading me.

Originally Posted by Esoteric

They consistantly claim that "class sizes" are larger BECAUSE OF government policies. Now I don't know about you, but when Jenny Sims, the head of the BCTF, says "class sizes are larger" I don't think to myself "oh she probably means just a few classes". She means that on the whole, on average, class sizes are larger.

And I'm telling you that 1) the average is not larger and 2) the BCTF is misrepresenting the facts just like you were with your 'Average Class Size' numbers. Some are larger, some are smaller.

Originally Posted by Esoteric

Not only is it not the case, they [the BCTF] said that the reason the class sizes would go up is because it was no longer in the collective agreement. Well class sizes are no longer included in the collective agreement and STILL average class sizes have not increased by a significant statistical amount DESPITE what the teachers said.

As I said in my first post, the agreement states that average class sizes should remain the same. The teachers say, fine, but that means that some class sizes increase -- which is not fine, it's unfair to those workers. You are just misreading whatever propaganda is thrown at you from the media.

Originally Posted by Esoteric

I'm sorry but I have reasearch and logic on my side... who's in your corner?

Two sides to every coin. If you stopped misrepresenting your research, you wouldn't have such bad logic.

Look, if you want, it can all boil down to this one question, which is at the heart of the teacher's debate: If you are getting screwed around by your employer, would you take action if you could?

Most people can't (mortgages, family, highly-specialized), or are afraid to, so they see the teacher's position as unfair. My advice to you: form a union or grow some balls.

[the_77x42]

Anyway, I'm done here. Quote all the research you want, it might well be in fact all very valid and after I read it I may come to the same conclusions as you regarding whether class sizes hurt students or the makeup of them does.

What I won't agree with is your post that highlighted average figures over the last few years and claimed that class sizes weren't increasing. Obviously, this is a falsehood as some are increasing and some are decreasing, which is consistent with your data. This I acomplished in my first post.

You then attributed a whole list of things to me which I didn't say and asked me for my opinion, which I gave. You are still arguing over the first post and still hold true to your heart that the BCTF is talking about average class sizes. They aren't. The issue is whether workers should be given more work for no more pay (and they have gone without a pay increase for a number of years). It's workers standing up for their rights -- their right to have fair pay relational to their work. If you want to continue arguing menial facts and superficial issues while avoiding the broader picture of union philosophy and the 'real' issues, you're bringing a knife to a gun fight.

I consider my work here done. Good day.