Shame on you Canada

[fable]

so what you are saying is that only certain people should be able to vote? or that we must meet a criteria in order to vote, even though we are citizens? that doesn't sound much like democracy to me.....

Everyone should have the right to vote. No one should have the right to vote ignorantly. The definition of such "ignorance" would be next to impossible to standardize, and therefore it is important for the citizenry to understand how exactly their vote effects every other citizen in this country/ who's interests said parties really represent, and whos are not/are ignored.

everyone is complaining that not enough canadians are not contributing their voices in who runs their country, yet when people like me, an "uninformed voter" as you so put, opens up and does vote (this was my first time voting by the way), you try to justify my decision based on ignorance and external influences.

In the current electorial process, and current governmental structure, no ones vote (who seek to see a government that actaully represents a larger/more inclusive community nationally) really means fuck all, in light of, there not being a real theoretical difference between Conservative and Liberal mandates. But with saying that, votes do count, in the context of deciding if the government of Canada is a minority or majority. [Im still persnally unsure of what i would have preferred: a conservative minority, or a liberal majority??? But i never thought the later would ever be achieved, so out of sight, out of mind.] A question i would think would be relevant to ask, of you, or anyone else who voted Conservative is:

a) was it a result of being disenfranchised with specifically a Liberal Government?

b) was it also a result of being severely disenfranchised with Canadian Government in general

c) Why did you choose a Conservative government over the:
NDP?
GREEN?

d) Who do you think make up the largest, and most outsoken/influential sector of Conservative support?

e) Finally, What do you believe to be the significant differences between COnservative and Liberal in Canada? (in terms of tangible fundementals)

so what you guys want is more people to vote, but only if they do not have external influences from others? they have to make the desicion by having an untainted souce that does not reflect others opinions? only bare facts? good fucking luck making that available to every person eligible in canada to vote.

AH!! I completely agree in the sence of being a current feeling or reality, but i do not agree with your apathy towards it. I personally believe as result of government perpetuated division, propaganda, and a general tendency to "blacklist" any alterantive education, in terms of political terminology and history, many citizens of Canada fall prey to illusion, misunderstanding and all out lies. BUT! Is this an excuse for ignorance? (i dont mean you specifically) And is this education the responsibility of those who want to perpetuate, or those who dont know they need it?? The answer seems obvious? But i think it wouldnt be too hard to convince the collective citizenry of Canada, who are not part of any ruling elite or government, that they(we, me, us) could all use a significant reemphasis, on what it means to be a "citizen" (in a non nationalisit sence, if thats possible?) And how our decicions, politically, effect the broader community.

So, in more plain english, if you really care about, seeing making significant change, you will empower yourself through education and experience, as well as those closest to you, all the while guarding against reactionary decision making. I promise you, if you do this earnestly and honestly, the answers, and realities, will either motivate you, or want to shoot yourself in the head.

in the end, it seems that voting doesn't voicing your opinion, more i crerates a form of stereotype that people seem to label you as the party you voted for. anyone who knows me, especially you shannon, knows i don't hate on homosexuals. i have many friends who are gay, yet when i do vote, suddenly i'm a fucking gay bashing peice of shit. hmm, interesting......

I dont know you, so im going to try not to stereotype you, but if you support a government that has somewhere, and at sometime leading up to election, had anti-gay sentiment, or something akin to it, then how do you go about supporting them? Okay, now it comes down to the reality, that we are in fact voting for the BEST possible government at the time, not the most perfect?? So if this is the case, then why do we have a sytem that offers such little representation of "fringe" parties, or hell, even "fringe" opinions for that matter?? I didnt vote green, but how does a party get 650, 000 votes nationally, and not have a single representative??

either way, i'm for less gst, something that should have been eliminated or severly reduced after world war II, better internship and aperenticeship programs for people my age, and i am happy to see that the conservative have a plan to take better care of our senior citizens. on the other hand, i am not for increasing our military involvment in outside issues(which in my oppinion is complete fuckin' bullshit), opressing gays, or having a partnership with george bush.

Man, im really glad your debating your stance, but "cutting taxes" is such a superficial goal in light of the current situation, how could this ever be a legitimate selling point!?!?!? I think Myra pointed it out, but YOU WILL NEVER SEE A SIGNIFICANT ENOUGH DROP, to justify the ramifications of such cuts! Unless your a large business owner, or in a upper income bracket. Of which case YOUR actaully a minority, a minority that technically(ideally) should not be able to enact such a decision when the ramifications do not affect them, rather the less wealthy majority.

What are the ramifications? Well i guess the popular belief is the cut back to social programs. But realistically we have come into times, where government no longer really needs a smokescreen (tax cuts) to slash social programs. Fuck, if i didnt know that it was so calculated and directed, id think it was almost on a fucking whim!! These social programs in all actaullity are desperetly trying to fight against systemic problems that cut the legs from under the common peoples quality of life, their voice, and the ability to self govern. Like what!? Poverty! Healthcare! Mental Health!

So realistically the tax cuts that influenced you voting decision, effect you far more negetively, then the people in said income bracket, that have the means and funds to obtain private services, and make enough income, to benefit from the tax cuts.

The far more serious reality in my opinion is a precedent that is created and reinforced, where the Government is thus given the go ahead to create legislature and ultimately pass it, that is flagrantly BULLSHIT! (er, not like this isnt already the case!)

be that as it may, it was about certain things outweighting others that made me vote the way i did. so if ya wanna call me a war hungry, gay bashing, pro-ameriacan "uninformed" citizen, go right the fuck ahead. i just thought the better of you knew me better than that.

Give me your take on the questions i asked, this line of debate is really integral i think.

[SEAN!]

Originally Posted by miss.myra

Less GST only benefits wealthier Canadians because they are the only people who can afford to spend a lot to notice the difference a whole percentage would make.

I'm more for a cut to income taxes because cuts to GST only put a focus on spending and not saving money- a good government should always try to do the latter.

Also, even some of the most conservative minded economists in this country know that an immediate cut to GST is something that is not financially viable for the county because the c.a. has never clearly stated where they are going to make up for those cuts because for this country's social structure to survive, we can't afford such a drastic loss of revenue.


anyways, good luck having that GST cut bill pass in a minority government because I know the grits, ndp and bloc would not support that.

you're actually 100% wrong on this point, GST hurts poor people the most because gst is paid on everyhting and takes a bigger proportion of a poor person's paycheque, it cuts into the standard of living of poor people far more then the rich. the rich may pay more taxes then everyone else but thats because they are rich and we have progressive taxation, also consumption taxes paid by welathier people tend to be on non descretionary items that they dont need to survive. The most important measure in this situation is the porportion of disposible income directed towards necessities which are taxed, and that is far higher on poor people who use most of their income to pay for necessities even if rich people pay three times more gst simply by buying a $100k car.

that being said id favour a huge reduction in income and corporate taxes in favour of higher consumption taxes simply because of the effect it would have on people's saving habits and long term economic growth.

p.s im also pretty sure that these tax cuts are financially sustainable, the problems with the conservatives is that unlike the liberals they dont use conservative accounting methods for calculating their yearly budgets. notice how they complain that every single liberal budget has produced surpluses that are exponetially higher then estimated like its a bad thing to be cautious.

[SEAN!]

Originally Posted by fable

I almost believe in some backwards way, that decentralization of government, almost sets up a positive environment for unity amongst the citizenry. But i also fear in the light of this, there may be an outpouring of nationalism which i personally is detremental to achieving long term goals in respect to an increased representation of said citizenry.

i agree with you, asides form the nationalism, it would happen in the states and elsewhere but canadains arent wierd like that.

[fable]

you're actually 100% wrong on this point, GST hurts poor people the most because gst is paid on everyhting and takes a bigger proportion of a poor person's paycheque, it cuts into the standard of living of poor people far more then the rich. the rich may pay more taxes then everyone else but thats because they are rich and we have progressive taxation, also consumption taxes paid by welathier people tend to be on non descretionary items that they dont need to survive. The most important measure in this situation is the porportion of disposible income directed towards necessities which are taxed, and that is far higher on poor people who use most of their income to pay for necessities even if rich people pay three times more gst simply by buying a $100k car.

I dont understand this? 7.5% is 7.5%, so proportionally it is the same, whether its on 100$ or 100 000$?

I dont defend the GST, but im defending it in the light of what the alternative will be, because the government of Canada, and the businesses/individuals it trully represents arent ready to give up their portion of the pie, just so we can have more long term health care beds, or grant oppertunities for youth in rehabilitation programs. The GST isnt applied to food, probably the highest in the list of needs for impovrished people, and any person in general (unless your on the cocaine + jd diet) Nor would i think that impovrished people would be spending enough on goods and services to feel the bite. Its food, shelter, healthcare related and travel at the top of the list. (admittedly this is being based on generalizations, but ones that have strong basis in statistics, and in real life)

There is an old stereotypical statement that sounds something akin to, the rich, dont stay rich, but becoming flagrant with their money. I think this mentality this holds some truth today. Greed, is greed, is greed.

[miss.myra]

Originally Posted by SEAN!

you're actually 100% wrong on this point.

No I'm not wrong, you just disagree with my point :p

Most people who want less GST want it because it makes it slightly cheaper when they buy "stuff", and I'm going off of what I've read/seen/heard here.

[Mangle]

Originally Posted by SEAN!

you're actually 100% wrong on this point, GST hurts poor people the most because gst is paid on everyhting and takes a bigger proportion of a poor person's paycheque, it cuts into the standard of living of poor people far more then the rich.

Yeah, that extra two cents on every comic book is really killing the poor. Just one thing, though, how are you gonna help the poor by making it so you have to spend more money to save money? The problem is they don't have money to begin with. That's why they're poor. But you know who has and spends a lot of money? Rich people. They're the only ones who will be affected by this. The rest of us just get smaller GST cheques. F*ck you, Harper.

[Mangle]

Originally Posted by Skitzo_Style

so what? i'm for less GST. so if that makes me a gay basher in the eyes of others, i reeealy don't give a shit.

Then why would you vote for the guy who just wants to lower it 2%. You do know it was only supposed to be a temporary tax and should be 0 by now, right? If you were really against it, you'd actually be against it and not just against 2% of it. In the meantime, yeah, you are a horrible, gay bashing, homophobe.

[Royal_Phunk]

well all is said and done now and i certainly dont think harper is the solution but all that aside the conservative party aside and their platform aside. We Canadians dont vote governments in we vote them out. While i didnt totally want the conservatives to even have a minority just the liberals to have less power i think that over all we cannot keep a government in power that has stolen millions from its own people i hope everyone remember this for a long time as well. Canada made its decision and now we will see how it plays out.

[SEAN!]

Originally Posted by Mangle

Yeah, that extra two cents on every comic book is really killing the poor. Just one thing, though, how are you gonna help the poor by making it so you have to spend more money to save money? The problem is they don't have money to begin with. That's why they're poor. But you know who has and spends a lot of money? Rich people. They're the only ones who will be affected by this. The rest of us just get smaller GST cheques. F*ck you, Harper.

no but the extra 50 bones a week you have to spend on food, rent and bills makes a difference when you only make 1300 a month.

p.s rich people dont get g.s.t cheques.

[SEAN!]

Originally Posted by miss.myra

No I'm not wrong, you just disagree with my point :p

Most people who want less GST want it because it makes it slightly cheaper when they buy "stuff", and I'm going off of what I've read/seen/heard here.

yeah you mean 'stuff' like food rent, and clothes?

people who have money dont even factor in g.s.t when they decide to make a purchase, poor people have to factor everything in. When im buying 200 dollar jeans the tax isnt a consideration, knoameeeeennn?

you can ask almost any economist or social scientist and they will agree with me.

[SEAN!]

Originally Posted by Mangle

Yeah, that extra two cents on every comic book is really killing the poor. Just one thing, though, how are you gonna help the poor by making it so you have to spend more money to save money? The problem is they don't have money to begin with. That's why they're poor. But you know who has and spends a lot of money? Rich people. They're the only ones who will be affected by this. The rest of us just get smaller GST cheques. F*ck you, Harper.

spend mroe money to save more money? i dont understand

[Digital Over]

Originally Posted by McNasty

Sorry but George Carlin is a comedian....he doesn't know a fuckin thing

If you didn't vote you have NO right to complain. Period. You chose to sit on your ass and therefore didn't do a fuckin thing to stop those "bastards" from being elected.





What the fuck? What kind of justification is this for not voting? Why don't we all just stay at home and keep our mouths shut and they "may" come to the conclusion that they need to make changes. Because politicians really give a fuck about the small percentage of lazy people who chose not to excercise their rights.

Everyone who didn't vote....either admit you fucked up....or keep your mouth shut.

I'm not complaining, I chose to sit this one out, and yeah, I'm fine with that. As I said, why should I have to give someone a vote based on pity or just because? The right not to vote applies just as does the right to vote, based on whatever personal views one may have; thus when i see no integrity in any of the people I have to vote for, why should I vote? Therefore I'm not being lazy, I'm not a preconception of someones idea of labelization; I'm just simply exercising my right to remain politically silent, and I don't really care who thinks what about it, because to be honest, its not someone else's decision to force upon me something with what I disagree with in the first place.

[miss.myra]

Originally Posted by SEAN!

yeah you mean 'stuff' like food rent, and clothes?

people who have money dont even factor in g.s.t when they decide to make a purchase, poor people have to factor everything in. When im buying 200 dollar jeans the tax isnt a consideration, knoameeeeennn?

you can ask almost any economist or social scientist and they will agree with me.

I know lots of people from Alberta, for example who will not buy things while in BC just because of the fact that they have to pay PST on the purchase, too. Might not be something us in BC won't consider because we weren't jumping up and buying more in BC when it was cut by half a percentage in 2004.

[fable]

Originally Posted by SEAN!

no but the extra 50 bones a week you have to spend on food, rent and bills makes a difference when you only make 1300 a month.

p.s rich people dont get g.s.t cheques.

1300$ per month is your idea of poor!?!?!

[miss.myra]

I could see that being poor if you say, had a family (ie one or more young children) to support on that income too.


not really if you're young though.

[Mangle]

Originally Posted by SEAN!

spend mroe money to save more money? i dont understand

Do you not understrand the idea of GST? You get charged GST on all non-essential purchases. To take advantage of this %2, the poor have to spend all of their money on VCRs and magazines. It's not actually giving them anything and, if you'd care to note, the rich tend to buy more cars and TVs than the poor.

Originally Posted by SEAN!

no but the extra 50 bones a week you have to spend on food, rent and bills makes a difference when you only make 1300 a month.
p.s rich people dont get g.s.t cheques.

Neither will poor people soon. How do you figure poor people will make $50 a week from 2% GST? If they spent all 1300 on gst taxable products alone (of which food is not one) they'd still only save $47.84 a month ($11.96 a week, barely enough for a pack of smokes). Nice math.

[Skitzo_Style]

Originally Posted by Mangle

Then why would you vote for the guy who just wants to lower it 2%. You do know it was only supposed to be a temporary tax and should be 0 by now, right? If you were really against it, you'd actually be against it and not just against 2% of it. In the meantime, yeah, you are a horrible, gay bashing, homophobe.

i know i am a homophobe, it just took voting for harper to for me to realize it. HALALUYAH!!! I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT!!!! HAIL SATAN, i mean HARPER!!!

and yes, i knew it was suppose to be a temporary tax. a temporary tax that was suppose to be abolished 60 years ago. but i have to look at it realisticly here. there is no party that wants to get rid of it completely, cause it takes money out our federal budget, as well as out of their salaries. so, i looked @ the alternative, which is 2% less. it may not seem like much, but if i save up that 2% over the next 10 years, @ $30 000 a year (this being the LEAST amount of money i'll make in that time). that's $600 a year, thats $6000 a decade. i work for about 35-40 years, thats $21 000 to $24 000 over the years i work till retrement.

that may not look like much to you, but i means a harley davidson softtail when i retire. i don't know if you like motorcyles, but i sure do.

[Skitzo_Style]

i think this thread will continue for 4 whole years, then harper will be elected in for a second term and myra will start a new thread called "come on canda, you gotta be fucking kidding me, AGAIN?!?!?!?!" lol

[Vitamin-X]

So much Conservative bashing going on.
They can't be all that bad, can they?
I for one, am looking forward to a little fiscal accountability, lower taxes,
maybe some military support to give us a drop of sovereignty.

[Mangle]

Originally Posted by Skitzo_Style

there is no party that wants to get rid of it completely, cause it takes money out our federal budget, as well as out of their salaries.

Their salaries aren't gonna go down, mind you. That 2% will have to be made up somewhere.

Originally Posted by Skitzo_Style

if i save up that 2% over the next 10 years, @ $30 000 a year (this being the LEAST amount of money i'll make in that time). that's $600 a year, thats $6000 a decade. i work for about 35-40 years, thats $21 000 to $24 000 over the years i work till retrement.

Where are you pulling these numbers from? You're telling me you spend all of your money on GST taxable products and that you're gonna put aside all the money you save on GST, to the penny, for a retirement motorcycle. I'd like to see you calculate that one on the fly. Face it, you're gonna buy a motorcycle because you make over 30 grand a year while millions more have to sit and watch the conservatives institute mandatory minimum sentancing, criminalize homosexuality, recriminalize pot, and try to generally screw over all poor people on every level (goodbye healthcare, it was a good ride while it lasted). With increased police presense, new religious based laws resulting in expanding jails, and increased military spending (Harper loves that wicked missile defense shield), these taxes will have to be made up somewhere: either you pay now or your children inherit a US sized debt. Hmmm...$24,000....that's just a couple thousand short of what each Canadian owes right now. I wonder how high that number will be after 20 years of "fiscal conservatism," expecially after we run out all of those hardworking, taxpaying gays, potheads, and aetheists.

[miss.myra]

Originally Posted by Skitzo_Style

i think this thread will continue for 4 whole years, then harper will be elected in for a second term and myra will start a new thread called "come on canda, you gotta be fucking kidding me, AGAIN?!?!?!?!" lol

lol! don't you mean sarah? ;)


I love how this thread is going, it's totally rad to see young people discussing politics because it shows INTEREST..it's also need to see people with differing opinions with minimal mud slinging

so bring it on! :D

[decypher]

You see whats going on right now? Liberal David Emerson crosses the floor to sit in Cabinet which i'm sure pleased his constituents.

Annnnnd Harper who campaigned on Senate reform(elected senators) just appointed a minister (fortier) a senator.


edit: when press asked Harper about how was Emerson different then Stronach and he fumbled that question like a hot potatoe. It was pretty funny.

[miss.myra]

I used to live in David Emerson's riding, dude is kind of a prick.

Pleased as punch to hear Peter Mackay is in his cabinet though, I love that guy. If Mr. Mackay was running the tory show I'd probably like them a lot more.

[Skitzo_Style]

Originally Posted by miss.myra

lol! don't you mean sarah? ;)
D

only if u call me bob sarah, only if you call me bob.

[(val)Liam]

you know... the 2% off GST is very clever... conservatives introduced it, one of the many reasons that made Brian Mulroney so unpopular, and now that Stephen Harper has lowered it, it creates such a huge conflict in the minds of the people that don't support him... regarding the GST issue, you can either hate the previous conservatives or the current, but you can't do both...