anyone to go the: Does God exist debate at UBC?

[Grapes]

Frankly, the whole thing isn't organized by totem poles anyways, is it? It's more of a throbbing mass of connectivity, of which our section happens to be bursting at the seams ATM

Totem poles are for sports standings and..... uh.... totem poles

[wishbone]

^
I believe lemurs have better eyesight in the dark than us.

sorry, dave :(

[kir mokum]

like i said, this "totem pole" metaphor is fundamentally flawed.

[SEAN!]

Originally Posted by miss.myra

There are a ton of widely accepted forms of psuedo science that do just a good a job of going sharply against scientific method that seem to offend people far less. i wonder why that is?

because the people who promote those forms of psuedoscience arent the same ones knocking on my door at 10am on saturday to prolestize nor are the ones saying im going to hell cuz i fuck before marriage.

besides, science will be able to explain alot of phenomena we currently dont understand, its more a limitation of our technology and frame of thinking then flaws in the method. given enough resources it could probably explain everything but at that point, we'd be god ourselves.

[decypher]

Originally Posted by ebbomega

It means that those that don't become the better thing get killed off. And that's what "extinction" means.

Don't fight this one son. Peer-reviewed journals are against you on it.

Yeh i agree with that slightly but,
I just find it hard to believe, today, that extinction is purely from being the weaker subject. Especially since our world is intertwined with artificial and natural systems that influence our social realities. Things don't just die off anymore in a natural evolutionary cycle, they are effected by our industry's, creations and byproducts.

[azazel]

Originally Posted by esoter1c

Elohim is plural, not singular.

Golden spiral.

That is all.

a picture would be more coherent, kthnxbai

[azazel]

Originally Posted by ebbomega

We can't, because that requires a lot more patience than your average scientist has. So we go onto other things. Fossil evidence to show the different stages between. Darwin became famous by looking at the Galapagos parrots and showing similar things by displacing their environments. You can also look at the horse and the donkey. They show you a point where the species truly do diverge - They can mate and they can reproduce together, however their offspring cannot so they're not considered the same species. They're pretty damn close.

But I asked for a single testable hypothesis. You asked for evolution and I gave you one. Now where's yours for ID?

NOPE? DON'T HAVE ONE? NOT A SCIENCE.

i'm aware of the galapagos example. that only proves adaptation on a micro level, not yet on a macro level from say molecule to man.

ID is simply the idea that the universe is organized and balanced in such a way that it's impossible that it came about ramdonly. just like how a building has a builder, and it wasn't just a hurricane that came by and stacked all the bricks to make a cathedral.

you see that all the time in nature n' stuff ;)

[decypher]

Originally Posted by SEAN!

because the people who promote those forms of psuedoscience arent the same ones knocking on my door at 10am on saturday to prolestize nor are the ones saying im going to hell cuz i fuck before marriage.

besides, science will be able to explain alot of phenomena we currently dont understand, its more a limitation of our technology and frame of thinking then flaws in the method. given enough resources it could probably explain everything but at that point, we'd be god ourselves.

It's funny you should mention God like that because i was watching this BBC lecture with Richard Dimbleby where he was talking about genetic research. Anyone can have their DNA decoded in 5 years as he says. It's pretty impressive what his team has done and discovered about diseases although some of his more idealistic notions of the future where pretty "brave new world'ish." Check this,

"A few months ago we published a scientific study in the journal Science where we described the ability to take a chromosome from one bacterium and place it into a second bacterial cell. The result was astonishing - the new DNA that we added changed the species completely from the original one into the species defined by the added DNA. You could describe this as the ultimate in identity theft."

but,

"Imagine that after designing the new chromosome, the computer directed a robot to chemically make the DNA strand encoding all that information, and that once constructed, the new chromosome would be inserted into a bacterial cell where it becomes activated causing the cell to turn into the species that the scientist designed. And now imagine that new species in a bio-reactor making millions of copies of itself and each copy is producing a new fuel from only renewable sources. Sounds like science fiction right? Not to me, because I believe this is the future." BBC - Press Office - Richard Dimbleby Lecture 2007: Dr J Craig Venter

He said that governments would have to bring in laws to protect against genetic discrimination as he advocated everyone to get their DNA decoded lol. Imagine what that information would mean for you in certain hands. The written lecture doesn't do it justice. If you watch it you'll see how creepy godlike this guy is as he talks about engineering new species.

The whole renewable fuel thing is amazing to say the least but the other applications of this technology is pretty creeptacular.

[azazel]

Originally Posted by wishbone

multiple niches. one species cannot dominate every niche on planet earth.

you're saying that because you're looking from the outside in.

But according to the whole blind watch maker theory, the DNA of a slug certainly doesn't have such self-awareness, let alone omni-awareness, to realize that evolving into a human would cause the food chain to be messed up. i say there's a stage manager involved to make sure that in nature everyone plays their part.

[esoter1c]

Originally Posted by azazel

a picture would be more coherent, kthnxbai

[azazel]

Originally Posted by esoter1c

you've read the secret haven't you :nuts:

[decypher]

Phi's in meeeeee ahhh.

[SEAN!]

Originally Posted by azazel

you're saying that because you're looking from the outside in.

But according to the whole blind watch maker theory, the DNA of a slug certainly doesn't have such self-awareness, let alone omni-awareness, to realize that evolving into a human would cause the food chain to be messed up. i say there's a stage manager involved to make sure that in nature everyone plays their part.

then you dont have even a rudimentry understanding of biology or genetics, and thats how its so easy for you to believe in ID.

[wishbone]

Originally Posted by azazel

you're saying that because you're looking from the outside in.

But according to the whole blind watch maker theory, the DNA of a slug certainly doesn't have such self-awareness, let alone omni-awareness, to realize that evolving into a human would cause the food chain to be messed up. i say there's a stage manager involved to make sure that in nature everyone plays their part.

well now you're touching on cognitive science, bringing up self-awareness. Is the mind even something physical? Can the mind evolve?

You're not providing answers, only asking more questions.

[azazel]

no geologist in the world would call this a natural rock formation, no matter how much crack he smoked (even over a billion year time line).



and yet the "uneducated" joe blow is a crazy "fundamentalist" if he believes something infinitely more complex like this didn't come about "accidentally"

[esoter1c]

So yeah, Wumski, whatcha thank bout that 7th commandment ?

adulterate - Definitions from Dictionary.com

greek moichos - Google Search

[azazel]

Originally Posted by wishbone

well now you're touching on cognitive science, bringing up self-awareness. Is the mind even something physical? Can the mind evolve?

You're not providing answers, only asking more questions.

i'm not sure what you mean by cognitive science but i'm saying if every single species was simply guided by a self-directed force to 'evolve' for its own betterment, on the macro level, then everything would be fucked, as opposed to having an omnipotent force that organizes everything perfectly. just think about that for a minute.

[SEAN!]

Originally Posted by azazel

no geologist in the world would call this a natural rock formation, no matter how much crack he smoked (even over a billion year time line).



and yet the "uneducated" joe blow is a crazy "fundamentalist" if he believes something infinitely more complex like this didn't come about "accidentally"

you fail to realize that we've already conducted thousands of experiements that conclude dna can evolve by accident. Denying that is an act of an uneducated fundamentalist.

[esoter1c]

Originally Posted by azazel

no geologist in the world would call this a natural rock formation, no matter how much crack he smoked (even over a billion year time line).



and yet the "uneducated" joe blow is a crazy "fundamentalist" if he believes something infinitely more complex like this didn't come about "accidentally"

"You can't throw ink at a piece of paper & get a blueprint just like you can't throw paint at a canvas & get the Mona Lisa." Me, yeah I said that, what !?

[azazel]

Originally Posted by esoter1c

So yeah, Wumski, whatcha thank bout that 7th commandment ?

adulterate - Definitions from Dictionary.com

greek moichos - Google Search

per usual, no idea of what you're talking about

[azazel]

Originally Posted by SEAN!

you fail to realize that we've already conducted thousands of experiements that conclude dna can evolve by accident. Denying that is an act of an uneducated fundamentalist.

i didn't say things couldn't evolve, just not to the point where lightning strikes mud and suddenly all the instructions to build a man is there. i don't believe in MACRO evolution.

you can't change into something where your DNA doesn't have such instructions. that's what i'm saying.

[wishbone]

Originally Posted by azazel

i'm not sure what you mean by cognitive science but i'm saying if every single species was simply guided by a self-directed force to 'evolve' for its own betterment, on the macro level, then everything would be fucked, as opposed to having an omnipotent force that organizes everything perfectly. just think about that for a minute.

not really.

Spontaneous order - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Also, if you factor in game theory -> we're always making choices to better ourselves. Why would someone make a decision which makes them worse off (unless, ultimately, it made them "better" off in whatever their desired goals are).

I have to be careful here though, as I somewhat agree with you as I am a believer in determinism....that everything IS set up in a certain way and we're just living it out. However, I'll never be able to prove that because of my perfect illusion of free will.

[kir mokum]

Originally Posted by azazel

the DNA of a slug certainly doesn't have such self-awareness

as far as i'm aware, there are no tests for self awareness.

Originally Posted by azazel

you're saying that because you're looking from the outside in.

so perspective is bad. ok.... so arrogance, shortsightedness, and myths are the best way to understand the world around us?

[kir mokum]

Originally Posted by esoter1c

"You can't throw ink at a piece of paper & get a blueprint just like you can't throw paint at a canvas & get the Mona Lisa." Me, yeah I said that, what !?

i'm sorry, but this implies a gross misunderstanding of evolution and atheist arguments. i'll agree that what was going on before the big bang is unknown and most likely unknowable much like "where did the laws of the universe come from" but to come to the conclusion that a god or gods were involved is just downright silly. i can understand the concept being used as a metaphor, but that's as far as it can go.

[wishbone]

i like this thread