Helmut Oberlander, decision upheld

[Clayton.]

This is rediculous.

Lots of things happened back then......this old man should be held accountable for anything. Clearly he was just trying to survive.

[NinjaBoy]

An interesting way to look at it is this.

He lied on his application. Which is what the problem now is. This current deportation isn't even mention the fact that he helped with at least 90 000 murders.

He also fled Canada before being charged. The US department of justice, extradited him finding enough evidence in their mind that he should stand trial for Nazi connections in Canada: #261 Accused Nazi Murder is Expelled from the United States

You initially paint him as a complete innocent in the situation, this is hardly the case.

But I pose an interesting question. In a unit of 100 people there is no way of dennying that he would have direct involvement (the translators in the unit supervised the villages as they dug their mass graves).

He knowingly participated in what happened, even if it was that or death, does he have that choice. Is the blood of 100 000 people on your hands worth your life? In this situation would you help? This was exactly the problem the SS had, which is why people who were unwillingly to be part of the cause were never put into the SS, let alone a special division of it...

Wouldn't death in this case be the obvious choice?

[Clayton.]

Originally Posted by NinjaBoy

He was a translator for the SD. The SD consisted of 100 people promoted up from the SS. The SD organized the gassings, and executions of entire villages before mass executions at concentration camps began. They used travelling vans to gas villages. After conentration camps got into full swing, the unit was deployed to Russia to help executing villages there.

At the nuermburg trials, documents from the SD stated that by 1942 they had executed 92 000 people.




Sure it doesn't...

That's terrible what happened back then.
But even those members of the SS/SD were just following orders.

[NinjaBoy]

Originally Posted by Clayton.

That's terrible what happened back then.
But even those members of the SS/SD were just following orders.

It still makes it war crimes.

[ebbomega]

Originally Posted by Clayton.

That's terrible what happened back then.
But even those members of the SS/SD were just following orders.

Brings us right back to Nuremberg - "just following orders" is not a legit excuse.

[Clayton.]

Originally Posted by NinjaBoy

It still makes it war crimes.

Does that mean all of our living veterans who were a part of the RCAF are war criminals?.

No, i don't see that it does.

[Grapes]

Originally Posted by Alex

I know to what purpose his translations were used. I specifically didn't mention that to avoid the very sensitive emotional reaction we've all been trained in, in regards of what happened.

Personally I don't require much training to find the systematic murder of innocent people abhorrent.

[ebbomega]

Originally Posted by Clayton.

Does that mean all of our living veterans who were a part of the RCAF are war criminals?.

No, i don't see that it does.

And what exactly did the RCAF do that consists of war crimes?

[Alex]

Would you choose death? No matter what your answer you don't really know. Obviously the vast majority wouldn't choose death. I mean look at the Holodomor. Most chose a long, suffering death(starvation), over immediate death(execution) by allowing soldiers to steal all of their grain needed for food. It's not like he sought out the Germans to assist them, believing in their cause. His village was conquered, they employed his help. Life, or death. Honestly, the execution of ~90,000 this unit was responsible PALES in comparison to the MILLIONS OF UKRAINIANS THE RUSSIANS WERE STARVING/EXECUTING/SENDING TO THE GULAGS to try and crush Ukrainian pride and Culture. Internationally recognized(including here in Canada) as an act of Genocide. This man lived through(grew up witnessing) large scale Genocide, and was expected to choose death over life, when all he had to do was translate and witness more of the same he was accustomed to his ENTIRE LIFE?

Originally Posted by NinjaBoy

An interesting way to look at it is this.

He lied on his application. Which is what the problem now is. This current deportation isn't even mention the fact that he helped with at least 90 000 murders.

He also fled Canada before being charged. The US department of justice, extradited him finding enough evidence in their mind that he should stand trial for Nazi connections in Canada: #261 Accused Nazi Murder is Expelled from the United States

You initially paint him as a complete innocent in the situation, this is hardly the case.

But I pose an interesting question. In a unit of 100 people there is no way of dennying that he would have direct involvement (the translators in the unit supervised the villages as they dug their mass graves).

He knowingly participated in what happened, even if it was that or death, does he have that choice. Is the blood of 100 000 people on your hands worth your life? In this situation would you help? This was exactly the problem the SS had, which is why people who were unwillingly to be part of the cause were never put into the SS, let alone a special division of it...

Wouldn't death in this case be the obvious choice?

[tiedye]

Killing men in battle is not a war crime. Killing innocents by the tens of thousands is.

[NinjaBoy]

Originally Posted by Clayton.

Does that mean all of our living veterans who were a part of the RCAF are war criminals?.

No, i don't see that it does.

Are you comparing the RCAF's bombing runs on berlin to Oberlander's unit's execution of 1.5 million people?

[Clayton.]

Ninjaboy was talking about killing entire villages. Our air forces fire bombed entire cities and killed hundreds of thousands of german civilians.
Bombing of Dresden

In no way am i trying to disrespect those men because they had a difficult and important job to do which they did well. My point is lots of stuff happened and one old man should not be held accountable for something the ss/sd did.

[NinjaBoy]

Originally Posted by Alex

Would you choose death? No matter what your answer you don't really know. Obviously the vast majority wouldn't choose death. I mean look at the Holodomor. Most chose a long, suffering death(starvation), over immediate death(execution) by allowing soldiers to steal all of their grain needed for food. It's not like he sought out the Germans to assist them, believing in their cause. His village was conquered, they employed his help. Life, or death. Honestly, the execution of ~90,000 this unit was responsible PALES in comparison to the MILLIONS OF UKRAINIANS THE RUSSIANS WERE STARVING/EXECUTING/SENDING TO THE GULAGS to try and crush Ukrainian pride and Culture. I

Actually the unit was responsible for 1.5 million deaths, the 90 000 were just during the year of 1942, that his unit of 100 men were directly identified as being a part of.

[NinjaBoy]

Originally Posted by Clayton.

Ninjaboy was talking about killing entire villages. Our air forces fire bombed entire cities and killed hundreds of thousands of german civilians.
Bombing of Dresden

In no way am i trying to disrespect those men because they had a difficult and important job to do which they did well. My point is lots of stuff happened and one old man should not be held accountable for something the ss/sd did.

Uh first off, the RCAF were never a part of the bombing of Dresden...

[Alex]

Regardless, the 1.5million isn't as many as were killed in the Holodomor. Oberlander would have witnessed 20-30% of the people in his region die from starvation or execution growing up(in a 1 year span, alone). On top of that he would have witnessed countless others dragged away and taken to the gulags in Siberia. This is very important to know to gather perspective. We know what we know based on what we've learned. The environment he grew up in was one of mass murder, executions, genocide. He would have learned he needed to survive at all costs. The Germans came in and demanded his help. Honestly they were just carrying out 'more of the same' of what the Russians had been doing in the Ukraine.

[tiedye]

Regardless, 1.5 million people is still 1.5 million fucking people.

"The death of one is a tragedy. The death of a million is a statistic."

Give me a fucking break. People died. Doesn't matter which had more losses. They are all losses.

[Alex]

NinjaBoy it's very easy for you to point a finger and say he should have refused, stood up for what's right. But honestly, what is right? Should he have resisted, helped the Russians, who were worse than the Germans? Or committed suicide/let them execute him? Honestly all the options are pretty dim.

[Clayton.]

Originally Posted by NinjaBoy

Uh first off, the RCAF were never a part of the bombing of Dresden...

That's not the point.
I wasn't specifically talking about Dresden i just used it as an example of the allied bombing of civilians.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by tiedye

Regardless, 1.5 million people is still 1.5 million fucking people.

"The death of one is a tragedy. The death of a million is a statistic."

Give me a fucking break. People died. Doesn't matter which had more losses. They are all losses.

Please see my point. The Holocaust was terrible. Disgusting. Abhorrent. My point was Mr. Oberlander grew up and witnessed a SEPERATE ACT OF GENOCIDE, the Holodomor, which affected his region FAR MORE then the Holocaust. Both were despicable, but after growing up witnessing all of these atrocities, how could he be expected to stand up against the Germans and 'do the right thing'?

[NinjaBoy]

Originally Posted by Alex

NinjaBoy it's very easy for you to point a finger and say he should have refused, stood up for what's right. But honestly, what is right? Should he have resisted, helped the Russians, who were worse than the Germans? Or committed suicide/let them execute him? Honestly all the options are pretty dim.

When your job consist of telling your fellow citizens to dig large mass graves, place their wives in children in them, tell them to get in there with them, while they are shot.

Then yes. Letting them execute the right thing to do. Would you honestly, sit there and tell thousands of children to get into a large grave to be shot, and still live with yourself.

If so, you are a stronger man then I am....

[ebbomega]

Civilian collateral damage during bombing is hardly
a) unique to WWII
b) considered a war crime

[NinjaBoy]

Originally Posted by Alex

Please see my point. The Holocaust was terrible. Disgusting. Abhorrent. My point was Mr. Oberlander grew up and witnessed a SEPERATE ACT OF GENOCIDE, the Holodomor, which affected his region FAR MORE then the Holocaust. Both were despicable, but after growing up witnessing all of these atrocities, how could he be expected to stand up against the Germans and 'do the right thing'?

Stalin grew up in a war torn country.

Is he not responsible for his actions?

[NinjaBoy]

Originally Posted by Clayton.

That's not the point.
I wasn't specifically talking about Dresden i just used it as an example of the allied bombing of civilians.

German airforce pilots weren't held directly responsible for attacks against civilian targets in the UK...

[Alex]

I don't know what I'd actually do, and neither do you.

Also, what either of us would do depending on what we had already experienced, and how these experiences have shaped how we view the world, would be very different than what we'd do growing up(I assume you have, correct me if I'm wrong) in Canada.

[Clayton.]

Originally Posted by NinjaBoy

German airforce pilots weren't held directly responsible for attacks against civilian targets in the UK...

Your point is?