Helmut Oberlander, decision upheld

[Alex]

That's not even remotely the same thing. Stalin rose to power and used fear to make others act on the atrocities he dreamed up. Mr. Oberlander was a 17 year old who had grown up in a hostile country, experienced an attempted Genocide, and was forced to comply with another Genocide.

Originally Posted by NinjaBoy

Stalin grew up in a war torn country.

Is he not responsible for his actions?

[tiedye]

Originally Posted by NinjaBoy

If so, you are a stronger man then I am....

I would argue that following those kinds of orders to protect your own hide is the weaker thing to do.

[ebbomega]

Originally Posted by Clayton.

Your point is?

Point is if you want to talk about war crimes talk about things that are actually war crimes, not things-that-happen-in-war-to-be-indignant-about because frankly any military action pretty much falls in that category.

[NinjaBoy]

Originally Posted by Alex

That's not even remotely the same thing. Stalin rose to power and used fear to make others act on the atrocities he dreamed up. Mr. Oberlander was a 17 year old who had grown up in a hostile country, experienced an attempted Genocide, and was forced to comply with another Genocide.

Ugh...

You said: "but after growing up witnessing all of these atrocities, how could he be expected to stand up against the Germans and 'do the right thing'?"

I was refrencing the fact that you can't excuse someone from participating in criminal acts because they grew up with them.

Stalin grew up in a worse situation then Oderlander did, yet we wouldn't excuse him for the decisions he made.

[NinjaBoy]

Originally Posted by Clayton.

Your point is?

Sigh...

You said:
Originally Posted by Clayton.
Does that mean all of our living veterans who were a part of the RCAF are war criminals?.

No, i don't see that it does.

My point is that pilots on neither side were considered war criminals...

[tiedye]

Being a product of your environment doesn't give you a Get Out of Jail card. That's just ridiculous.

[Clayton.]

Originally Posted by NinjaBoy

Sigh...

You said:
Originally Posted by Clayton.
Does that mean all of our living veterans who were a part of the RCAF are war criminals?.

No, i don't see that it does.

My point is that pilots on neither side were considered war criminals...

I actually misread your originaly post and jumped to the conclusion that you said 'were' instead of 'weren't'.

[Alex]

First off, to say growing up in Georgia in the late 1800's is worse than growing up in the Ukraine when Mr. Oberlander did is absolutely absurd.

Second, Mr. Oberlander COMPLIED and assisted the Nazi's in carrying out acts in reality no different than he had witnessed his entire life.

Stalin was a revolutionary BEFORE the Communist Revolution in 1917. He was the 2nd leader of his cause. He made it to the top through murdering and fear, and once he reached the top, carried out acts of brutality and Genocide. Compare Stalin to Hitler, not to Oberlander.

[NinjaBoy]

Originally Posted by tiedye

Being a product of your environment doesn't give you a Get Out of Jail card. That's just ridiculous.

What I enjoy most about this, is that Alex has gone from "he's innocent" to "he may have done some shit but it's because he grew up in a terrible environment".

My Grandmother grew up during the Japanese occupation of Canton. Harsh times where she witnessed members of her family being killed in front of her.

Doesn't mean she has free reign to act out against Japanese.

[tiedye]

If he had witnessed it before... then shouldn't he have a first-hand account of the wrong he was doing?

[Alex]

No, it doesn't. But choosing to basically go along with the status quo of your society over death is reasonable.

As consumer's we're helping commit horrific acts all across the globe. What if North America is invaded, or a revolution takes place, and all who 'supported these atrocities' were deemed criminals?

Originally Posted by tiedye

Being a product of your environment doesn't give you a Get Out of Jail card. That's just ridiculous.

[Alex]

You're assuming logic and reason and an apparent knowledge of a 'better life' were possible. Guaranteed the driving decision in his compliance was the desire to survive, to exist, and not perish like the millions of others in his nation already had.

Originally Posted by tiedye

If he had witnessed it before... then shouldn't he have a first-hand account of the wrong he was doing?

[ebbomega]

And again, everybody's completely ignoring Nuremberg.

Regardless of what your personal opinions as to whether a person is justified in doing so or not, the "acting under orders" and "everybody else was doing it" defense didn't fly in the war crimes trials.

[tiedye]

No, it doesn't. But choosing to basically go along with the status quo of your society over death is reasonable.

Oh god. The status quo in my hometown hate gays, are borderline white supremest, and like to kick the shit out of anyone who disagrees with them. Does this mean I have an excuse to be socially and racially offencive just to watch my own ass? Would I still be a good person?

[NinjaBoy]

Originally Posted by Alex

No, it doesn't. But choosing to basically go along with the status quo of your society over death is reasonable.

As consumer's we're helping commit horrific acts all across the globe. What if North America is invaded, or a revolution takes place, and all who 'supported these atrocities' were deemed criminals?

Wow, you're just talking out of your ass.

First off, learn the definition of War Crimes before you try and talk about it. Trying to connect a citizen of a country to another one because of support of an economic system is the height of stupidity.

Seriously, you had a point at the start of this thread, but you've lost it when you started justifying his actions, and now this.

[tiedye]

Originally Posted by ebbomega

And again, everybody's completely ignoring Nuremberg.

Regardless of what your personal opinions as to whether a person is justified in doing so or not, the "acting under orders" and "everybody else was doing it" defense didn't fly in the war crimes trials.

Three pages just to come back to my initial conclusion. We'll call it a learning curve.

[Alex]

Definitions are determined by those who yield power. They also change, frequently.

How do you *know* that down the road Business Leaders, Board of Director's for Corporations, and Economic Advisors aren't going to be tried and convicted for making decisions and suggestions to improve profitability at the expense of others suffering? If that happens it's not much of a leap to hold the consumer's who bought products from said businesses due to prices etc over company's with more humanitarian products at higher prices, accountable.

Originally Posted by NinjaBoy

Wow, you're just talking out of your ass.

First off, learn the definition of War Crimes before you try and talk about it. Trying to connect a citizen of a country to another one because of support of an economic system is the height of stupidity.

Seriously, you had a point at the start of this thread, but you've lost it when you started justifying his actions, and now this.

[miss.myra]

it's really weird how alex picks and chooses his issues.

alex is a big loud voice against welfare/poor people in general saying tough shit if you were in bad circumstances or made some poor decisions, deal the hand you are dealt and that is life. not saying i disagree, but everyone has been made repeatedly aware he feels this way.

now correct me if i am wrong, but it appears mr. oberlander is a victim of a set of unfortunate circumstances and made some poor decisions along the way and is now facing the consequences of these circumstances and decisions.

so, what's the difference?

[tiedye]

What the hell does the future have to do with past crimes being punished in the present? This isn't sci-fi court case.

[Clayton.]

For those of you who say you would have refused to work for the SS and have you and your whole family sent to a concentration camp or executed. It's easy for you to say that now but obviously things were a lot differant back then and you can in no way relate to what this gentleman had to go through.
I couldn't judge him for his actions like it seems some of you are.

It will be interesting to see how things turn out for him.

[Alex]

^ I've also made it clear my heart bleed's for what people go through elsewhere in the world. My views on poverty etc are contained to Canada.

To overcome the 'odd's' of a poor childhood in Canada is like climbing a hill, at most doing the Grouse Grind, and other get to start at the top.

In other regions in the world, it's like Everest.

[tiedye]

Fact of the matter is that keeping your life at the expense of innocents' has never ever been justifiable, past or present.

[Alex]

It has everything to do with this. How do you *KNOW* your current actions aren't going to be deemed as 'war crimes' or 'crimes against humanity' in the future, any more than MR. Oberlander knew that he was going to be given an opportunity to escape hell to be tried for the 'crimes' it was later determined he had committed, back then?

Originally Posted by tiedye

What the hell does the future have to do with past crimes being punished in the present? This isn't sci-fi court case.

[Alex]

By that statement, living in Canada in our consumer nation, at the expense of billions in poverty around the world, is not justifiable either.

Originally Posted by tiedye

Fact of the matter is that keeping your life at the expense of innocents' has never ever been justifiable, past or present.

[Clayton.]

Originally Posted by tiedye

Fact of the matter is that keeping your life at the expense of innocents' has never ever been justifiable, past or present.

That's true.

But if it came down to it and i had to do terrible things to save my family from slavery and torture, i would do it.

No doubt in my mind about that.