Pope vs Islam

[miss.myra]

yeah but in a sense even in the world there are good christians and bad christians

how many people do you know that say they don't necessarily hate christians, they just hate the 'right wing extremists' or the 'homophobics', I see your point but I think that dichotomy is universal.

[Sykonee]

Originally Posted by fable

The alternative to this "condition?"
-get active
-get involved
-empower yourself through consistent education
-do not shy away from conflict
-BE AWARE OF OUR OWN IGNORANCE and battle it 24/7

“I don't call it violence when it's self-defense, I call it intelligence."

That's all well and good for what I/we can do. But what of the OTHER side?

As you've mentioned, the divide between the developed and underdeveloped lands have been caused by previous nations' exploitation of those lands. Let's say, for arguement's sake, every developed nation admits to its errors of the past, turns the other cheek, and does what it can to help these nations?

Will these underdeveloped nations do the same, or will their years of pent-up hatred and animosity towards us blind them to being willing to move on, holding nothing but suspicions and contempt to the hand that tries to offer the olive branch again (after all, some nations of the past were conquered through such peaceful, diplomatic means)? It's one thing for one side to apologize, but it takes just as much willingness from the other side to accept it. Those unwilling to do so will continue to recycle that hatred until one or both sides are gone. Not a cheery thought, but that's a sad fact of human nature.

I'd prefer our world strive to make a better future, but all too often we have a tendency to remain stuck in the past.

[fable]

Originally Posted by Sykonee

That's all well and good for what I/we can do. But what of the OTHER side?

As you've mentioned, the divide between the developed and underdeveloped lands have been caused by previous nations' exploitation of those lands. Let's say, for arguement's sake, every developed nation admits to its errors of the past, turns the other cheek, and does what it can to help these nations?

Why are you talking in terms of developed and underdeveloped? That has nothing to do about the discussion of the balance of forces in the world. Which is what exactly we are currently talking about here.

Will these underdeveloped nations do the same, or will their years of pent-up hatred and animosity towards us blind them to being willing to move on, holding nothing but suspicions and contempt to the hand that tries to offer the olive branch again (after all, some nations of the past were conquered through such peaceful, diplomatic means)?

How is a nation conquered peacefully or diplomatically? And who is offering the olive branch? We sure as hell aren’t. Saying sorry, or calls for peace mean nothing if we support/fuel the structures that made specific oppression possible in the first place.

It's one thing for one side to apologize, but it takes just as much willingness from the other side to accept it. Those unwilling to do so will continue to recycle that hatred until one or both sides are gone. Not a cheery thought, but that's a sad fact of human nature.

Once again, you're ignoring the balance of forces in the world. Lets first work on actually destroying the structural forms of oppression first and adopting forms of practiced equality before we talk about how accepting the "other" side should be. To talk in such a manner is fucking absurd.

I'd prefer our world strive to make a better future, but all too often we have a tendency to remain stuck in the past.

That’s great, but this has nothing to do with being stuck in past and everything to do with you being 100% in the dark about any contemporary racism, sexism, and ultimately classism.

Stuck in the past

That’s a joke right?

Your words smack of grand hypocrisy. How can you talk about the reaction of oppressed peoples, and peaceful resolution when the economy, politics, and intellectual culture we sustain in this country amounts to standing on the necks of the very oppressed you are criticizing?

In Palestine, there is a wall that exists 30 feet tall, ten feet thick, laden with sniper towers and armed soldiers 24.7. The West Bank and Gaza have been turned into the two largest open-air prisons in the world.
>Israeli idea of peace

In Afghanistan there now exists a society that is the poorest in the world. It boasts the worlds worst literacy rate, the largest internal refugee camps, has seen its life expectancy drop 4.5 years since 2001, sees more checkpoints than any where else in the world outside of Palestine. In the last five years foreign occupation and war has INCREASED over 200% Asides from these conditions FOREIGN BUSINESS CAN EXIST IN AFGHANISTAN TAX FREE FOR 8 YEARS AND CAN TAKE 100% OF PROFITS OUT OF STATE
>Can/US/UK/France/Dutch/Nato/UN idea of peace

In Haiti there exists a society that is referred to as savages and backwater animals by the world. A society, which celebrated the first black republic in the world. A society that waged three successful revolutions against colonialist powers. A society that has been shattered by imperialist tendencies, invasion and occupation. The literacy rates a drop rate that includes children leaving school well before grade 8. A society that sees poor slums like Cite Soleil and Port au Prince facing the heaviest of attacks by UN forces a year ago. A society that saw its democratically elected President kidnapped from the national airport by US special forces covered by Canadian special forces - JTF2, on the basis that Aristide would not privatize communications, and several other national sectors.
>Can/US/France/UN idea of peace

In Iraq over 250,000 Iraqi peoples have lost their lives. The UN imposed economic sanctions that saw over 3 million lives lost in the 90's. Prior to this the US armed and facilitated an 8-year war between Iran and Iraq. In Iraq there exists a society that saw over 300,000 state employees layed off when then Civil Administrator US Paul Bremmer took over national operations in Iraq. Today Baghdad sees an additional 20 000 US troops being assigned in the city. Non-existent sewage facilities, virtually non existent regular power, gasoline as precious and hard to find as gold, starvation, and regular civilian assaults at the hands of coalition troops.
>Can/US/France/Uk/UN idea of peace

These are three examples amongst thousands. And somehow you still have the nerve to talk about how the "other" side operates?

[Sykonee]

Originally Posted by fable

These are three examples amongst thousands. And somehow you still have the nerve to talk about how the "other" side operates?

I said "for arguement's sake". Obviously, the truth is nowhere near it.

But, again for arguement's sake, are you saying they are, and forever will be, blameless in their actions?

[fable]

Originally Posted by miss.myra

yeah but in a sense even in the world there are good christians and bad christians

What are the differences between the demographics that practice Christianity and Islam?

Have the followers of Christianity found themselves under the same degree of oppression as those who follow Islam in the last century?

You're getting away from what Islam represents today, again. There is no relevancy for a comparison between why people criticize Christianity and why Islam. More often than none, such critique is based simply on an incomplete understanding of why PEOPLE WITHIN a respective faith, do what they do, whether Islam, Judaism, Catholicism etc. Look to the class oppression, and balance of forces.

how many people do you know that say they don't necessarily hate christians, they just hate the 'right wing extremists' or the 'homophobics', I see your point but I think that dichotomy is universal.

I don’t think you are seeing my point, but I think its because Im being a tad intellectual.

More often than none, when someone talks in the manner in which you provided an example of, they are connecting respective fucked up actions with the religion. And more often than none it’s untrue. The second mistake is to confuse orthodox or oppressive means of practicing a faith within REGULAR people and RULING CLASS. The "rightwingedness" you talk about is misleading. Forget about left and right, right now.

When the ruling class, or their government/administration attach oppressive actions to faith, it’s based on political/economic interest. When it’s practiced within the general populace its based on ignorance/ quest for enlightenment, trying to survive in this fucked up world.

Simply, the rightwingedness you talk about is based on different core issues, dependant on the class of people, and therefore cannot be treated the same, or fought against the same.

If approaching orthodox, or fucked up perspectives on what religion is in the general populace, I approach it in terms of education, and spreading awareness, and trying to bring a unification of people based on class interests.

When approaching it on a larger, ruling class level...well I don’t yet, because the support is lacking and we would be crushed.

Poor and working class Muslims, Christian, Catholics, Jewish, etc peoples have more in common with each other, than they do with their respective well off, capitalist layer or the fucked up administrations that may proclaim to represent them. The Muslim faith is no stranger to this either. In North America there is a large layer of reformist/opportunistic Muslims that do whatever they can to drive a wedge between working class Muslims. They talk in terms of Extremism, or fundamentalism. And they talk about battling such issues, all the while supporting the systemic oppression that creates the environment for "extremism" in the first place.

I personally hate the word "extremism" It’s fucked up, and was created and utilized by ruling class/government. The world is extreme, the conditions forced upon us are extreme. Our reactions are human and very necessary and in light of the conditions and balance of forces that surround us, they are needed.

All this aside, I also believe in a peaceful means of bringing change. But when the majority demands massive change historically, the latent, or old power structure, never leaves without a fight, and in turn, we have to fight.

Rereading our conversation, I wonder if it comes down to simply understanding who the real enemy is?

[fable]

Originally Posted by Sykonee

I said "for arguement's sake". Obviously, the truth is nowhere near it.

But, again for arguement's sake, are you saying they are, and forever will be, blameless in their actions?

Im sorry Sykonee, I dont want to come off like Im attacking you, but I am unable to speak in terms of "arguments sake" or any other respective hypothetical situation. I beleive it is dangerous and reactionary. The tendency to engage in such dialogue was cut out of me ages ago.

I believe in peaceful resolutions, I crave peaceful resolutions, but like I mentioned in another post, never in the history of humans has there been a shift in the balance of powers without the old oppressive regimes putting up a fight. In turn we fight.

"I don't mean go out and get violent; but at the same time you should never be nonviolent unless you run into some nonviolence. I'm nonviolent with those who are nonviolent with me. But when you drop that violence on me, then you've made me go insane, and I'm not responsible for what I do."

[Grapes]

"I don't mean go out and get violent; but at the same time you should never be nonviolent unless you run into some nonviolence. I'm nonviolent with those who are nonviolent with me. But when you drop that violence on me, then you've made me go insane, and I'm not responsible for what I do."

That's the best doublespeak I've heard since Rummy's "things we don't know that we don't know."

Seems to me Fable is basically writing the Islamic extremists a blank cheque to do whatever they like until we stop oppressing them.

Take the Palestinian/Israeli scenario as a microcosm of that... Fable's position is that because Israel are the oppressors (which they certainly are), the Palestinians are morally off the hook for whatever batshit crazy attacks they want to orchestrate.

Lets first work on actually destroying the structural forms of oppression first and adopting forms of practiced equality before we talk about how accepting the "other" side should be.

All of this waiting for the "other side" to make the first goodwill gesture is what keeps us in this cycle of violence to begin with. As usual, dialogue and negotation is the only viable long term solution... but it all starts with people wanting a solution. The players in this game seem more concerned with things like power and revenge.

[BongMan]

Originally Posted by fable

I'm nonviolent with those who are nonviolent with me. But when you drop that violence on me, then you've made me go insane, and I'm not responsible for what I do."

I am going to call bullshit on that you may not be physically violent but you are certainly quick tempered and ill mannered with people who disagree with you. Being a supporter of MAWO you would think one would be a little more passive. Practice what you preach I suppose, for MAWO being anti war and all you are extremely confrontational. I have also come to notice that you are very closed minded to a single set of ideals. Which brings me to wonder how many friends do you have with a seperate set of ideals / view on the world then you???

[fable]

Originally Posted by Grapes

That's the best doublespeak I've heard since Rummy's "things we don't know that we don't know."

Seems to me Fable is basically writing the Islamic extremists a blank cheque to do whatever they like until we stop oppressing them.

_What exactly is an Islamic Extremist?

Take the Palestinian/Israeli scenario as a microcosm of that... Fable's position is that because Israel are the oppressors (which they certainly are), the Palestinians are morally off the hook for whatever batshit crazy attacks they want to orchestrate.

_Morality means nothing. The objective conditions are what they are, and need to be dealt with, and are in the best fashion available to people. To speak on the actions of desperate people, in terms of morality only accentuates your own massive arrogance.

All of this waiting for the "other side" to make the first goodwill gesture is what keeps us in this cycle of violence to begin with. As usual, dialogue and negotation is the only viable long term solution... but it all starts with people wanting a solution. The players in this game seem more concerned with things like power and revenge.

Im talking about the end of oppressive systems and governments and your talking in terms of goodwill gestures??? You live in a world devoid of comprehension. You sound like someone who has no idea about what they are discussing, and are running on arrogant assumptions alone.

Take a visit to Gaza, and tell the population of what translates into caged animals they need to chill out, and adopt a peaceful approach. Then head over to Baghdad, then Afghanistan, and then visit the impoverished reserves across Canada.

As someone who doesnt find themselves in the same oppressive conditions that millions others face, what right do you have to judge, the often desperate acts of those who are fighting for basic human right and dignitiy?

"it starts with people wanting a solution"

People want to be free! Fuck your arrogance.

[fable]

_Do you ever stop to think before you write?

Originally Posted by BongMan

I am going to call bullshit on that you may not be physically violent but you are certainly quick tempered and ill mannered with people who disagree with you.

_The quote was Malcolm X.
_An assessment of someone’s temperament through analysis of words alone is incomplete
_We are discussing systemic and widespread oppression, you make it about religion and then turn around and speak about manners? Get a fucking grip.

Being a supporter of MAWO you would think one would be a little more passive.

_Until you come out to some events and meetings don’t discuss things you have no clue about, or experience with. You are taking on the role of an ignorant heckler, with no basis or foundation for your comments.

Practice what you preach I suppose, for MAWO being anti war and all you are extremely confrontational.

_What? What does spreading education and awareness about the fight that will need to be waged, in order for the basic human freedoms denied to millions have to do with being docile or civil?

I have also come to notice that you are very closed minded to a single set of ideals.

_That is a manner of perspective. Mine is developed from heavy research, consistent political development, ongoing involvement in political organizing and being challenged on every single thought in my head 24/7. It has nothing to do with being narrow minded, but rather being forced to be brutally focused and sharp.

Which brings me to wonder how many friends do you have with a separate set of ideals / view on the world then you???

_What does this have to do with anything? I dont base freindship, or constrain my freinds to the same ideaology as me. I want my freinds to be challenging not robots.

Bong, im going to clarify something for you, because it would seem that your existence on this planet has yet to teach you anything about reality. A reality that has no time for proper tableside manners, when the house is being burned down.

Could I stand to be a tad more civil? Of course I could. But that comes, when you take a few steps forward yourself. The first could be informing yourself more, and walking in the shoes of the people I often discuss from time to time.

Do this, and Ill lighten up.