|
|||||||
| Punching Bag Bitch, cry and whine your way into oblivion. |
 |
|
|
LinkBack | Topic Tools | Rate Topic |
Sep 18, 06
|
|||
|
|||
|
Pope vs Islam
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...304485,00.html
Seriously, these people are fucked up. -Pope quotes some shit from an ancient writing about Islam being spread by the sword. (I believe the words 'evil and inhuman' were used) -Muslims all over the world are enraged and stage protests. Some go as far as fire-bombing churches and shooting a nun in the back. Now I'm not christian or muslim. Quite frankly, I think they're both full of shit, but isn't this like someone punching you in the face because you called them violent? 
|
|
Sep 18, 06
|
||||
|
||||
|
Quote:
.. resort to bombs and destruction! Game, set, match! So much for THAT theory, Western World! God, what a mess.
|
|
Sep 19, 06
|
|||
|
|||
|
C-O-N-T-E-X-T!!!!!
try using it billy! This eye for an eye makes the world blind bullshit is just that - bullshit, further tainted by western hypocricy and arrogance. We condemn others violence, regardless if it is response to decades of oppression (at the hands of our own capitalist economy/government) and do nothing about what "administration" does in the name of "our" well being, and then turn around and judge?
|
|
Sep 19, 06
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
What happens when you fight fire with fire?
|
|
Sep 19, 06
|
|||
|
|||
|
taken from here:
http://www.thejakartapost.com/detail...919.@01&irec=0 Forgive and move on, NU says Ary Hermawan, The Jakarta Post, Jakarta Nadhlatul Ulama chairman Hasyim Muzadi called on Indonesian Muslims on Monday to accept Pope Benedict XVI's apology for offending Muslims, saying it was "an obligation" according to Islamic teachings. "As long as it (the Pope's remarks) was made out of negligence, we are obliged to accept the apology," Hasyim said on the sidelines of a religious leaders conference at the NU office. The conference, held by the Indonesian Conference for Religion and Peace (ICRP), was also addressed by Cardinal Julius Darmaatmadja of the Indonesian Bishops Conference (KWI). Hasyim said the regret was "enough" and further resentment from the Muslims would only justify the pope's statement. "If the rage continues, perhaps what the pope said is true," he said. The pope in his address at the University of Regensburg in Bavaria, Germany, quoted a medieval text linking Islam with violence. Quoting a 14th century Christian, Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Palaeologus, the pope said everything the Prophet Muhammad brought was evil, "such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." The Vatican issued a formal statement Saturday, announcing the Pope's "sincere regret" over his remarks and the reactions of the Muslims around the world. The pope stressed Sunday that the medieval quotes he used in his speech address did not reflect his personal views. The speech was about the importance of reason, and not violence, in one's faith -- something he said many Christian and Muslim scholars agreed on. In the conference, the KWI made a formal statement of apology to Muslims here for the pope's remark. The church said it shared the concerns of Muslims, who thought their prophet was belittled or their God blasphemed. "I hope this incident does not damage the religious harmony we have tried to build all this time," the statement said, "and the act of forgiving each other will be the basis for better dialog in our coexistence." Hasyim said the relationship between Islam and the Vatican here was good and would not be destroyed in a few days, although he admitted that the statement had caused tensions between the two faiths. "The damage might have been done ... but it is regretted in the hope that it will not happen again," Cardinal Julius said. The incident taught a good lesson; that one should be extra careful when speaking about religion and holy books. There are about six million Catholics in the country. Speaking at the Non-Aligned Movement summit, in Havana, Cuba, President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono said he hoped the pope's apology would end the global outcry among Muslims. He also praised Indonesia's religious leaders such as Hasyim, Muhammadiyah chairman Din Syamsudin and popular preacher Abdullah Gymnastiar, who he said had responded to the Pope's remarks "wisely". "I would like to express my gratitude and appreciation to the ulema in Indonesia, who have urged their communities to refrain (from committing violence) and told them there would be a good end to the problem," he told Antara. Meanwhile, Islamic Defenders Front members rallied in front of the Vatican embassy building Monday, demanding the pope apologize "directly" to Muslims. "He has only expressed his regret, but he has not yet apologized," the hardline group's spokesman, Umar Nawawi, said.
|
|
Sep 19, 06
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
What does interpretation have anything to do with it? Perhaps if you are a sit-on-the-fence caucasian social democrat living in downtown vancouver canada, you have the luxary of pulling out such profound irrelevencies as "what happens when you fight fire with fire" But it doesnt apply to most of the living world who live in REALITY. Man i dont think ive ever heard such an absurdity from the most hardcore of peaceniks in this city! Last edited by fable; Sep 19, 06 at 03:59 PM.
|
|
Sep 19, 06
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
|
|
Sep 19, 06
|
|||
|
|||
|
so this is justifiable http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1377592006 because the Pope quoted some century old text??
|
|
Sep 19, 06
|
|||
|
|||
|
Go Team Pope Eggs Benidict!!!
|
|
Sep 19, 06
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
The shooting of a nun is disgusting, but rather isolated, and is no way in keeping with any precept of any faith. I dont not argue that this sort of behaviour is justifiable ever. BUT once again, decades of oppression are being answered and I think of any more fitting quote to use than when Malcom X talked about the "Chickens coming home to roost" when JFK was assasinated.
|
|
Sep 19, 06
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
|
|
Sep 19, 06
|
|||
|
|||
|
what about the context of two religions that have been striving for a harmonious coexistence for decades now? what about the context that leaders of both religions still want to strive for that?
what about the context that the words or actions of one does not reflect the whole, does the whole in turn deserved to be punished? are all Catholics guilty because the pope is clearly a douche and clearly has foot in mouth syndrome and does this mean they deserve punishment? that their houses of worship deserve to be vandalized? are all canadians guilty of the actions of their leaders which a majority of them didn't vote for? which a large number of them don't agree with? If that's true, that would mean it's okay for people to go vandalize mosques because a few extremists who wanted to blow up some planes happened to be Muslim. It's not ok. Maybe some of us are not brainwashed like you'd be happy to believe, some of us don't condone violence or war in any shape or form against any person. Believing in such does not make us brainwashed and does not mean we agree with or sympathize with the past/present actions of our leaders. How is that for context?
|
|
Sep 19, 06
|
||||||
|
||||||
|
MYRA: I asked you to relate to the specific context of the respective situation . You turned around and gave me the background on your own views, and arrogant condemnations of violence. Views that are historically, shared by people in an economic position where violent upheaval, oppression and systemic racism and corruption are on the other side of the fence. Essentially a petty boujousie outlook. Where the savage, ignorant and evil, perpetrates violence. This opinion further goes on to ignore the fact that the violence in question is in fact a reaction. Not a reaction to random comments on the street or media, but rather a reaction to systemic oppression. Very often comments, like those of the Pope are confused with being the basis of said violence, but more often than none, such comments are only fuel on the fire.
Quote:
Quote:
-Personally I could care less about Catholics, or Muslims for that matter based on the faith. The only reason I talk about Muslims or the Muslim community, is because of what or more specifically WHOM the faith represents. I think all religions are fucked up, but I also understand that faith is an important thing in the lives of those who have had everything taken from them. Quote:
Quote:
//the violence or violent behavior amongst a community, is not always subject to, or a product of ignorant comments BUT rather said ignorant comments are a trigger, or detonator of such violence IN LIGHT OF ongoing and systemic oppression at the hands of specific nations, where the POPE could be a spiritual symbol of// Quote:
When the black civil rights movement was going on, and African Americans by the millions where being attacked, raped, brutalized, liberals at the time also talked about their violent reactions to such acts of racism/corruption/classism all the while living off the very oppressive system and culture that degraded African Americans When India was fighting against British Colonialism, the wealthy citizens amongst the colonizing British civilians often tried to integrate with poor Indians. Spreading the word of love all the while not doing anything in resistance the violence inflicted by their own corrupt government In Canada we often are confronted in the media about the negative image of militant indigenous groups that are extremist and even terrorist. But do nothing and say nothing when RCMP pour 70 000 rounds of bullets onto a handful of sundancers. Your comments about what you think is grotesque violence is the very same talk that has Canadian soldiers dying and killing in Afghanistan. In the name of peace we bring war, and it’s the citizens who condemn violence, that hamstring any significant resistance to SYSTEMIC and STRUCTURAL violence enacted by government and corporation. Like I mentioned before, you do not get unity and peace while we accept the existence of the systems and structures that oppress human beings, and despite all your talk, all you truly do is condemn those who are literally fighting FOR their lives, and the betterment of THEIR lives. Quote:
|
|
Sep 19, 06
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
2) I often cannot read through one of your ATTEMPTS at sounding relevant without actually feeling embarrassed FOR YOU. Im sure im not the only one. 3) Only someone who never really understood the point of the conversation from the very beginning, would talk in terms of "being right" I WOULD GIVE MY LIFE TEN TIMES OVER TO BE WRONG
|
|
Sep 20, 06
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
Additional Curiosity Question: I'm assuming you have a problem with this Condition. What, pray tell, exactly is the Right Condition?
|
|
Sep 20, 06
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
The North American condition is a tagline of my own creation. It is neither an intellectual concept, political terminology nor legitimate ideology. Using it is more a product of my own frustrations and current inability to be a pillar of patience when trying to have people understand that by existing in North America or any "western" nation we are predisposed to be ignorant to the conditions of people in the third world, or understanding the significance and cause of such conditions. This train of thought of mine was triggered when Myra started dialogue that put the respective topic in a framework where one side where violent, perhaps "extremist or fundamentalist" practitioners of a faith VS. The more sublime, pacifistic, true practitioners of a faith. Quote:
The significance of this mindset, is that it completely ignores the core issues of why certain behaviors occur, in this case violent upheaval. Like racism, contemporary violence in the name of protecting the faith, is connected to class oppression, or more specifically being victimized by such class oppression. The Muslim faith is under more attack today, than ever but not on any religious basis, despite words like that of the Pope shared. The Muslim faith is under attack because it is the predominant faith of the most oppressed of peoples on the planet, or the of the people who currently face imperialist war and occupation. These would include; sections of Africa, the Middle East, Australia, Haiti and here in N.America in a smaller scale. I argue on this reality. I believe that as a tried and true tactic, if the ruling class/government/large capitalist interests, are able to fuel and propagate a mass sentiment of fear, distrust, and disgust of a faith-its strength and its relevancy, then in turn it is able to greatly disfigure the morality, the hope and spiritual strength of oppressed peoples. This being said, I must once again state that I am not a fan of organized religion. Growing up in a family that was one half hindu/buddhist/christian and the other half Sunni Muslim, I saw the negative side of organized/practices faith more often than. But in the end, the struggles of some within whatever religion to be peace-loving and to keep ones hands free of blood is reactionary in the current context. More often than none the violence question has little to do with someone being offended because their prophet is being insulted, but in reaction to the great hypocrisies involved in being critiqued. HYPCORCIY #1: Having ones faith being linked or connected with violence -this is a tactic. If the world believes the violence within Muslim communities is based on a reaction to insult, then in turn said violence is condemned. BUT if the world understands that said violence is in fact a reaction to decades of systemic oppression in the form of monopoly capitalism preceded by invasion and subsequent WESTERN NATION initiated violence, then all of the sudden the violence in question is understood at the very least. And in the best-case scenario, it is supported. The simple truth, is if you are not under prolonged and systemic attack, or have never been, and you ignore the context IN WHICH OPPRESSED PEOPLES LIVE IN then you cannot speak on whether violence is justifiable or not, in condemning fashion. The before mentioned finds basis in the North American Condition. It is not a personal attack of hollow insult. Its constructive criticism (that is sometimes inappropriate - I admit) Criticism that is rooted in the fact that we live in a capitalist/imperialist nation that propagates most of the violence in this world, and more often than none, it is the orchestrators of said violence that then turn around and misinform the public, and cause the public to inadvertently support their campaign of oppression. The alternative to this "condition?" -get active -get involved -empower yourself through consistent education -do not shy away from conflict -BE AWARE OF OUR OWN IGNORANCE and battle it 24/7 “I don't call it violence when it's self-defense, I call it intelligence."
|
