Unions/Strike/CUPE

[Alex]

Not that it affects me, however out of principal I am angered; especially since my step mom is a vice president or something of her chapter in the CUPE union.

Basically, the argument is that Vancouver workers cannot afford to buy a home in the city in which they live. Alright, they have a decent sales pitch and i'm extremely confident they've swayed many, many citizens to support their cause.

My main issue is the fact that most PROFFESSIONALS can't afford to buy a home in Vancouver. The fact is that the average value of a detached bungalow(house on it's own property) in the City of Vancouver is over double that of the second leading city in Canada, Toronto. This is a fact. Owning a home is not a right in our country, it has never been a right. It is a priviledge earned through hard work, the hard work of family etc etc. City workers for the most part are unskilled workers. A degree is not needed to do their jobs. The ~40,000 a year most of them earn annually is a gift. They should be ecstatic they live in a society where Unions are so prevalent, and have fought so hard to give them an undeserved wage. Striking in an attempt to earn more than, again, several proffessionals do annually is an insult to the foundation or our society and is just plain ignorant, as is supporting the cause. City workers can't afford to own a home in Vancouver? Rent. ~40,000 is more than sufficient to rent an apartment, make payments on a car, insurance, etc. In all truthfulness, owning a home is far over rated. With current mortgage's most are taking, the smarter financial decision would simply be to rent, and save as much as possible in mutual funds or high yielding savings plans. The 25, 30 and 40 year mortgages most are taking, with the appeal of low payments, in the end are costing just as much, and often 150% more in interest than the actual cost of the house. Owning for the most part isn't the smartest investment, unless done right, which makes their argument even more preposterous. Furthermore if their aspirations exceed their incomes, work harder. Get a second job, take night classes. A good friend of mine's income exceeds 12,000 a month. He has no education, however he is in sales and chooses to work 80-100 hours a week. He wasn't always as successful, he worked hard. Another friend of mine came out of university with absolutely no student loans, on an accelerated 2 year program that cost him 35000. He worked very, very hard, and is now looking to buy an apartment down town. These are choices others have made. The choice these union workers have made for the most part is to not go to school, to rely on theri union to fight for wage increases, and to settle for mediocrity. It's an insult that such attitudes and work ethics may possible prevail, and enjoy a higher standard of living than deserved, simply because they chose to attempt to hold the city hostage at an inconvenient time. I say fire them all, hire and train new staff. It may cost more short term, however it'll will take power away from the unions and set a very important precedent.

I understand most of you will disagree with my opinions, which is why I posted it here.

[FeelGood]

well thats one way of looking at it. strong opinion , well done.

[glorywithheld*]

I agree. Union workers have it better of than a lot of other workers in this city. I mean who is striking for the people only making minimum wage? Also, if you want to afford a nice house on a garbage collector's wage, then this is not the city to be living in.

[SEAN!]

To qualify to purchase the average home in Vancouver, at $450k, you need a salary of around $120k per annum. Nice try on the part of the union, but most people who work in Vancouver can't afford the average home there either, so its not a valid argument.

[Alex]

^ The average detached bungalow in the City of Vancouver(which means it's a house on it's own property, not an apartment, not in a complex housing system, not a duplex etc) is around ~$750 000. This strike is nothing but a publicity stunt orchestrated by the CUPE union. Teachers need years and years of education, yet start at a negligible increase in wages as opposed to city workers.

[crookedking]

GGGRRRRRR! it makes me soooo angry that other people want more than they have!

[Alex]

^ It's the principle behind the entire ordeal. The thought that these people actually have convinced themselves they have an entitlement for more than their already over inflated incomes.

[Senior]

Originally Posted by Alex

^ It's the principle behind the entire ordeal. The thought that these people actually have convinced themselves they have an entitlement for more than their already over inflated incomes.

you're right it is the principle, people deserve to be able to make a decent living. before we had the right to collective bargaining very few people made a decent living, think no middle class. now you must be aware that the economy in this city is sizzling, and with it the price of everything is going up. therefore is it so unreasonable to expect that your income should go up as well?

my wages have been going up @ 15-20% a year because the economy is so hot, how much do these city workers want? I think they're asking for 3% or something. $0.60/hour on $20?????? what's the big deal pay them and lets get on with it.

also union or non union all of us enjoy the benefits of the workers rights they have created for us. anyway I'm going to go and enjoy this long weekend.

[Senior]

Originally Posted by Alex

Not that it affects me, however out of principal I am angered; especially since my step mom is a vice president or something of her chapter in the CUPE union.

Basically, the argument is that Vancouver workers cannot afford to buy a home in the city in which they live. Alright, they have a decent sales pitch and i'm extremely confident they've swayed many, many citizens to support their cause.

My main issue is the fact that most PROFFESSIONALS can't afford to buy a home in Vancouver. The fact is that the average value of a detached bungalow(house on it's own property) in the City of Vancouver is over double that of the second leading city in Canada, Toronto. This is a fact. Owning a home is not a right in our country, it has never been a right. It is a priviledge earned through hard work, the hard work of family etc etc. City workers for the most part are unskilled workers. A degree is not needed to do their jobs. The ~40,000 a year most of them earn annually is a gift. They should be ecstatic they live in a society where Unions are so prevalent, and have fought so hard to give them an undeserved wage. Striking in an attempt to earn more than, again, several proffessionals do annually is an insult to the foundation or our society and is just plain ignorant, as is supporting the cause. City workers can't afford to own a home in Vancouver? Rent. ~40,000 is more than sufficient to rent an apartment, make payments on a car, insurance, etc. In all truthfulness, owning a home is far over rated. With current mortgage's most are taking, the smarter financial decision would simply be to rent, and save as much as possible in mutual funds or high yielding savings plans. The 25, 30 and 40 year mortgages most are taking, with the appeal of low payments, in the end are costing just as much, and often 150% more in interest than the actual cost of the house. Owning for the most part isn't the smartest investment, unless done right, which makes their argument even more preposterous. Furthermore if their aspirations exceed their incomes, work harder. Get a second job, take night classes. A good friend of mine's income exceeds 12,000 a month. He has no education, however he is in sales and chooses to work 80-100 hours a week. He wasn't always as successful, he worked hard. Another friend of mine came out of university with absolutely no student loans, on an accelerated 2 year program that cost him 35000. He worked very, very hard, and is now looking to buy an apartment down town. These are choices others have made. The choice these union workers have made for the most part is to not go to school, to rely on theri union to fight for wage increases, and to settle for mediocrity. It's an insult that such attitudes and work ethics may possible prevail, and enjoy a higher standard of living than deserved, simply because they chose to attempt to hold the city hostage at an inconvenient time. I say fire them all, hire and train new staff. It may cost more short term, however it'll will take power away from the unions and set a very important precedent.

I understand most of you will disagree with my opinions, which is why I posted it here.

you must have a HUGE ego. really all that I can take from this is that if you don't aspire to drive a Ferrari then you must be some kind of loser. the reality is that most union jobs are as you would put it mediocre. however you should be able to afford a simple life style and have a family. some how this offends you?

I love how you seem to be such a capitalist but then you end your rant with a fascist comment along the lines of "fire them all and replace them with slaves!"

[Senior]

along with almost every other right you take for granted as an employee unions also created the term and practice known as "minimum wage."

Originally Posted by glorywithheld*

I agree. Union workers have it better of than a lot of other workers in this city. I mean who is striking for the people only making minimum wage? Also, if you want to afford a nice house on a garbage collector's wage, then this is not the city to be living in.

[b0ld]

what I find funny is how at the very beginning the union was asking for a 5 year contract when the city only offered 3.5 years, and now the union decided they would flex to a 3 year deal and now the city of vancouver is not even considering on talking even though at the beginning they offered 3.5 years... I mean what gives... With the amount of money that city hall is making, there is really no damn excuse why they can't come to an agreement.

To give you an example.... Given the beautiful climate we have here, vancouver has it easy especially during the winter season. It doesn't get as cold and the snow fall is next to nil compared to other major cities in the rest of this country. The amount of money that a city has to pay for snow removal / equipment / road repair after the season is over is absolutely astronomical. The city of vancouver doesn't even have to spend a quarter compared to the amount that these cities spend. So really there is no excuses at all.

[wishbone]

you know, if people couldn't afford houses, either new people would move in or housing prices would drop.

People in vancouver must be able to afford the housing, otherwise that whole free market system can be thrown into the fiction section.

therefore, there must be a market of housing for everyone's salary level.

[Alex]

'Just pay them and be done with it'

I can tell you'd make a great business man. The city should be run like a prosperous bussiness. It should make a profit, and should run as smoothly as possible. The union workers are already over payed. As I stated before if they want a comfortable, middle class lifestyle, maybe they should have aspired to do more. Work a second job, go to school. Earning an income to thrust your family into 'middle class' is not a right.

By the way, my last comment in which you inferred as fascist is still in it's core capitalist. It may cost *more* immediately, however the precedent it would set would save the city more in the long term.

[.Promoter]

There is only one thing that needs to be said to display why CUPE does not deserve more money.

Avergae hourly income for a private landscaper 10-18$

Average hourly income for a city landscaper 20-30$

And the private guy not only does a better job, but he actually gets fired for bad performance. City workers do god awful jobs because they know they cant get fired. They are over paid at what they do, and they still complain they need more money. If they want more money they might as well go get a better education.

Ive worked in the landscaping and construction fields for a few years as i get ready to attend university. I currently work downtown at the Shangri-la.

Ive never seen worse work for such good pay out of city workers. Its like everymans dream to get into doing city construction. They take for fucking ever and get payed a ridiclous sum. They use like 15 guys to do a 5 man job.

This whole strike thing pisses me off rightly. I wish the public knew more about teh comparable wages so that they did not support the mass movement of these workers.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Senior

along with almost every other right you take for granted as an employee unions also created the term and practice known as "minimum wage."

Alright, I'll give you this. Unions did fight for minimum wage, and several rights and freedoms workers now afford. Unions have done much good(notice I'm typing in past tense). Just because an idea, or a group, achieved great successes in leaps and bounds upon it's inception, doesn't necessarily translate into successes and rational conclusions in all future endeavours. Unions have accomplished a lot of good, however I truly believe they are over stepping their bounds, and working hard to deteriorate and eventually destroy the little capitalist nature our nation is still employing. Most unions, albeit not all, are comprised of non skilled workers. These workers contribute little more than time and body towards the corporation, or in this case city's vision. To cut from the profit margins of the individuals who have worked hard, and created the visions in which their organization may thrive is complete and utter lunacy. Unions use publicity to sway public opinion, and hold the employer hostage, using negative publicity to corner the employer into negotiating and giving up said profit, fearing public back lash.

One situation I supported the union: teachers. Teachers go through a lot of education to do what they do. They are professionals, and one of the most critical occupations in society. They deserve more than they recieve, and I support their fight, however un-skilled city workers can't use that argument, and are motivated by greed and manipulation by the union leaders.

I have to run or else I'd type more, I'll be on later to discuss further.

[Senior]

Originally Posted by .Promoter

There is only one thing that needs to be said to display why CUPE does not deserve more money.

Avergae hourly income for a private landscaper 10-18$

Average hourly income for a city landscaper 20-30$

And the private guy not only does a better job, but he actually gets fired for bad performance. City workers do god awful jobs because they know they cant get fired. They are over paid at what they do, and they still complain they need more money. If they want more money they might as well go get a better education.

Ive worked in the landscaping and construction fields for a few years as i get ready to attend university. I currently work downtown at the Shangri-la.

Ive never seen worse work for such good pay out of city workers. Its like everymans dream to get into doing city construction. They take for fucking ever and get payed a ridiclous sum. They use like 15 guys to do a 5 man job.

This whole strike thing pisses me off rightly. I wish the public knew more about teh comparable wages so that they did not support the mass movement of these workers.

good job on completely talking out your ass. show me some solid references for your "statistics" or be nice and run along. I'd really like to meet the person in this city that is doing manual labor for $10/hour. our laborers are $16/hour to start with no experience for pushing a broom. apprentices are starting at $18/hour for buying a tool belt and some hand tools. my company is not union.

last time I checked Stanley Park is immaculately kept and that's taken care of by city workers. for that matter all of the parks in our city are pretty damn nice. looks like that argument is pretty weak.

these people are only trying to make their incomes keep pace with the rising cost of living in this city.

[Senior]

Originally Posted by Alex

'Just pay them and be done with it'

I can tell you'd make a great business man. The city should be run like a prosperous bussiness. It should make a profit, and should run as smoothly as possible. The union workers are already over payed. As I stated before if they want a comfortable, middle class lifestyle, maybe they should have aspired to do more. Work a second job, go to school. Earning an income to thrust your family into 'middle class' is not a right.

By the way, my last comment in which you inferred as fascist is still in it's core capitalist. It may cost *more* immediately, however the precedent it would set would save the city more in the long term.

If this city should be run like a business then lets start by not having our streets filled with garbage during our peak season for tourism. this is nothing short of a publicity disaster. that said while I do have respect for the bottom line I don't believe that the city is a business or that it should be entirely run like just any other business. the city as an organization was created to serve the people that live here. yes it should be run fiscally responsibly but profit should not be the leading guideline for it's operation.

[Senior]

this is a pretty good out line for how the city should be run imo,

City of Vancouver - Values and Objectives

[crookedking]

Originally Posted by Alex

^ It's the principle behind the entire ordeal. The thought that these people actually have convinced themselves they have an entitlement for more than their already over inflated incomes.

the way i look at it is like this...

some people go to school to make more money, some people get second jobs, some people go on a picket line. they're doing what they think is the best way for them to get more money.

Wow I cant believe how some people think. Many of you who are calling these people "lazy", "greedy", and "unskilled" are talking out of your imaginations. I will agree that there is a problem with unions as there is always the bad apple who takes advantage of the union. However many if not most do work hard, are skilled, and even have more education than they need.

I dont know where this tangent of thinking that people on a picket line deserve what they get and arn't as strong willed as others. You would be surprised how many ppl do in fact have post secondary degrees and many other skills, but end up settling for union job. Just because you go to school doesn't guaranty you a good job. Sometimes security, dental, medical and other union benefits are more important than making mega bling bling.

i find it ironic that someone who believes that teachers and education is the most important thing also expects people (parents) to work 80-100 hours a week and 2 jobs to live a decent life. How are kids suppose to get the right support and parenting if all their parents do is work?

[Carrie]

I just don't like how every other city can come to an agreement but not Vancouver.

and how the workers on strike harrassed the volunteers who tried to clean up the beach after the fireworks

[Vitamin-X]

Speed word association

Union Fat-cat
Union Lazy
Union Mobsters

[crookedking]

Originally Posted by Vitamin-X

Speed word association

Union Fat-cat
Union Lazy
Union Mobsters

garfield

me

the soprano's.

I am assuming that the union hate comes from people who have no education on how a union works or are NOT part of a union them selfs and never have been.

I hold 3-4 jobs through out the year. Only one of them in unionized. Even though it is the 3rd highest paying job of the 4... it is still the job I am most loyal too, am treated the best in, and feel the safest in. Like I said before there are the FEW bad apples who take advantage of the system, but they are no different from the people who mangle and manipulate their ways threw corrupt systems and unfairly beat you successfully in un-unionized jobs.

[Mangle]

Originally Posted by R Wellbelove

mangle

Werd.

Seriously, though, I agree. Anyone who is against unions period is a moron who deserves the corporate ass raping that's coming to them. Yes, unions have problems - everything does - but unions are really the only thing trying to give workers a living wage. This will become crutial when China closes its borders to trade, leaving the world's slave labour supply decimated.