Is It weird for Christians to be Ravers?

[Sean]

Please enlighten me, how is it possible to both believe in God and not believe in God at the same time?

[oliver]

Originally posted by Sean:


How is it possible to have multiple belief systems? You either believe in a Christian God, or some other kind of God (if you believe at all).

i can believe in multiple gods if i choose. hell, i can believe in whatever i want if i choose it. christians dont have that same choice after they choose to be christians. and a good section of those people didnt have the choice in the first place as the religion was indoctrinated in them from an early age.

[Sean]

i can believe in multiple gods if i choose. hell, i can believe in whatever i want if i choose it.

No shit, that's exactly what I was saying. I thought I was making it pretty obvious, but I'm sorry for also not making that blatantly clear by saying "God(s)" instead of "God".

christians dont have that same choice after they choose to be christians.

Do your beliefs frequently change? If you say, happened to believe that there are 15 different Gods, would you all of a sudden start believing that there's 1 God next week and no God the week after that? If not, then I don't see what the hell your argument has to do with anything. Yeah, Christians only believe in a Christian God. Atheists only believe in no God. I'm pretty sure you only believe in whatever the hell you believe in and nothing else, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

For the record, I believe in a God, not necessarily the Christian God, and while having been indoctrinated with a Catholic upbringing I'm nothing even closely resembling a practicing Catholic.

[Ryan Ross]

Originally posted by Sean:


Um, just like he's closeminded about not accepting the Christian God? How is it possible to have multiple belief systems? You either believe in God, or you don't. You either believe in a Christian God, or some other kind of God (if you believe at all).

This doesn't make you close-minded, nor does it mean you have to frown upon people with other beliefs. A lot of Christians do, sure, but they're not good Christians ^^

1st off- you don't know that he is closed minded about there being a christian god. He may well have looked at the facts and decided for himeself what to believe.

Yes, I know that some christians have also done this, I say good for them. What I'm talking about are the people that are incorperated into a religion at an early age (which is the majority of strongly religious people), thus taught all their lives that its only their way that can be correct. This tends to make people closed minded to other ideas.

I'm all for people being religious. Believe what you want. But know why you believe it, be open to other sets of beliefs, and don't look down on other's beliefs. If this is what a good christian is, then by all means they are not out of place at a rave.Through my experience, however, the majority of religious people I know do not fall into this catagory.

[Sean]

Originally posted by Blunted:


1st off- you don't know that he is closed minded about there being a christian god. He may well have looked at the facts and decided for himeself what to believe.

Fair enough, I made the assumption based on his tone, but you're right.

Yes, I know that some christians have also done this, I say good for them. What I'm talking about are the people that are incorperated into a religion at an early age (which is the majority of strongly religious people), thus taught all their lives that its only their way that can be correct. This tends to make people closed minded to other ideas.

I was in a Catholic elementary school for 8 years, was forced to go to Church every Sunday for like 15 years, etc etc, all the indoctrination you could possibly imagine. Once I was at an age where I could think for myself, I did exactly that. Indoctrination only works on the weak-minded and/or ignorant, which unfortunately represents the majority of humanity.

I'm all for people being religious. Believe what you want. But know why you believe it, be open to other sets of beliefs, and don't look down on other's beliefs. If this is what a good christian is, then by all means they are not out of place at a rave.Through my experience, however, the majority of religious people I know do not fall into this catagory.

I'd have trouble disagreeing with you, unfortunately there are a lot of ignorant, close-minded Christians. This goes beyond Christianity of course, I'd say it's a very human trait. What I'm arguing is that this has nothing to do with the values of Christianity, but is rather a form of far-too-common malpractice. IMO, Christian values are good values.

[oliver]

Originally posted by Sean:


No shit, that's exactly what I was saying. I thought I was making it pretty obvious, but I'm sorry for also not making that blatantly clear by saying "God(s)" instead of "God".

well, it looks like you agree with me. how splendid.

(ideally) raves are about the hedonistic exploration of freedom and expanding ones mind in an environment of the complete equality of all religions, sexual orientations, philosophies, etc.

ideally: christianity is about accepting one god, one religion, and a lifestyle that is condoned by the church.

hows that for making my point clear?

[Sean]

ideally: christianity is about accepting one god, one religion, and a lifestyle that is condoned by the church.

This is where I completely disagree with you. Christianity, as it was taught to me over the years (disregarding the Catholic dogma bullshit that was thrown in), is about accepting others and being a good person. Judge not lest ye be judged yourself. I firmly believe in this, and don't see how it's at all incompatible with PLUR, electronic music, or drugs.

[oliver]

Originally posted by Sean:

Indoctrination only works on the weak-minded and/or ignorant, which unfortunately represents the majority of humanity.

...which explains the size of the christian following...and why the majority of christians are exactly that.

booyaka.

[Sean]

...which explains the size of the christian following...and why the majority of christians are exactly that.

Not every Christian is a sheep. Lots are though, yes.

[oliver]

Originally posted by Sean:


This is where I completely disagree with you. Christianity, as it was taught to me over the years (disregarding the Catholic dogma bullshit that was thrown in), is about accepting others and being a good person. Judge not lest ye be judged yourself.

thats all well and good, so where does the church, god, hell, corruption, exclusion, persecution, war, and the sheep mindset come from.

if christianity was JUST about being a good person and treating others as you would treat yourself, the world would be a far different place.

maybe thats all it is to you, but as you said yourself, you are not the majority of christians.

[Ryan Ross]

Originally posted by Sean:

I was in a Catholic elementary school for 8 years, was forced to go to Church every Sunday for like 15 years, etc etc, all the indoctrination you could possibly imagine. Once I was at an age where I could think for myself, I did exactly that. Indoctrination only works on the weak-minded and/or ignorant, which unfortunately represents the majority of humanity.

Props for thinking for yourself :) Like you said though, most people can't. My problem with major religions is that these people are made to do whatever the church wants them to do "in the name of God" but thats a whole other topic.

I'd have trouble disagreeing with you, unfortunately there are a lot of ignorant, close-minded Christians. This goes beyond Christianity of course, I'd say it's a very human trait. What I'm arguing is that this has nothing to do with the values of Christianity, but is rather a form of far-too-common malpractice. IMO, Christian values are good values.

Agreed. I do however disagree with their views on homosexuality and other such views of moral superiority.

[oliver]

Originally posted by Sean:


Judge not lest ye be judged yourself. I firmly believe in this, and don't see how it's at all incompatible with PLUR, electronic music, or drugs.

this is what i think is incompatible:

Originally posted by Junglet:

(ideally) raves are about the hedonistic exploration of freedom and expanding ones mind in an environment of the complete equality of all religions, sexual orientations, philosophies, etc.

(ideally): christianity is about accepting one god, one religion, and a lifestyle that is condoned by the church.

capiche?

[Sean]

so where does the church, god, hell, corruption, exclusion, persecution, war, and the sheep mindset come from.

Are you sure you want God in that list? God is fundamental to Christian belief and is their way of explaining creation. There's no way of either proving or disproving God so there's really no point in getting into this anymore here.

As for the rest, you can thank the Catholic church for that. You'll notice that I'm talking about Christianity as an ideal, a mindset, and not as a widely practiced religion such as Catholicism or another branch of it. You seem to be using the two interchangeably, which is where I completely disagree with you.

[Sean]

this is what i think is incompatible:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Junglet:

(ideally) raves are about the hedonistic exploration of freedom and expanding ones mind in an environment of the complete equality of all religions, sexual orientations, philosophies, etc.

(ideally): christianity is about accepting one god, one religion, and a lifestyle that is condoned by the church.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



capiche?

Again, you're using Christianity and Catholicism/Baptism/Protestantism/insert_branch_of_church_here interchangeably. Do you see my point?

[Ryan Ross]

Originally posted by Junglet:


thats all well and good, so where does the church, god, hell, corruption, exclusion, persecution, war, and the sheep mindset come from.

if christianity was JUST about being a good person and treating others as you would treat yourself, the world would be a far different place.

maybe thats all it is to you, but as you said yourself, you are not the majority of christians.

I agree with him on one thing: Its not the teaching of christians that causes all that bullshit, but rather the abuse of authority placed in the church, and the blind following of religious leader with alterior motives (not just christians).

[oliver]

you said it yourself!

Originally posted by Sean:


Christianity, is about accepting others and being a good person. Judge not lest ye be judged yourself.

you didnt mention god in your summary of christian belief here...

somewhat of a key point no? regardless of whether god exists or not.

Originally posted by Junglet:

(ideally): christianity is about accepting one god, one religion, and a lifestyle that is condoned by the church.

Originally posted by Sean:

Again, you're using Christianity and Catholicism/Baptism/Protestantism/insert_branch_of_church_here interchangeably. Do you see my point?.

tell me how one god, one religion, and a lifestyle condoned by the church is exclusive to either catholicism or christianity and not shared by both and thus interchangeable in that respect.

[Sean]

Agreed. I do however disagree with their views on homosexuality and other such views of moral superiority.

Yeah, I don't agree either. There are a lot of fundamentally hypocritical things in the Bible. The only stuff I really take to have any meaning are the things that are said to have come directly from Jesus, and as far as my limited readings and understanding goes, he didn't preach a thing about evil homosexuals or whatnot.

[Sean]

you didnt mention god in your summary of christian belief here...

somewhat of a key point no? regardless of whether god exists or not.

Um, I wasn't trying to give you a comprehensive overview of all things Christian. God is at the very heart of Christian beliefs, I assumed I wouldn't have to go over that with you. Furthermore, I don't see what God has to do with anything we're arguing at all.

tell me how one god, one religion, and a lifestyle condoned by the church is exclusive to either catholicism or christianity and not shared by both and thus interchangeable in that respect.

Maybe you can point out to me where exactly in the scripture Jesus said you have to live according to a church that doesn't yet exist...

We've been over the one God and one religion thing already.

but rather the abuse of authority placed in the church, and the blind following of religious leader with alterior motives (not just christians).

Bingo.

[oliver]

Originally posted by Sean:


Um, I wasn't trying to give you a comprehensive overview of all things Christian. God is at the very heart of Christian beliefs, I assumed I wouldn't have to go over that with you. Furthermore, I don't see what God has to do with anything we're arguing at all.

JEEZUS FUCKING CHRIST! do i have to point this out to you?

"God is at the very heart of Christian beliefs"
"Furthermore, I don't see what God has to do with anything we're arguing at all."

so what are YOU talking about?

cause im talking about how christian ideology (i.e. beliefs) butts heads with "rave" ideology.

[oliver]

Originally posted by Sean:


We've been over the one God and one religion thing already.

.

then we can finish this off. do you understand what im saying?

christianity: one god, one religion.

rave: anything goes. everything is equally valid.

i can only repeat myself so many times.

[Sean]

JEEZUS FUCKING CHRIST! do i have to point this out to you?

"God is at the very heart of Christian beliefs"
"Furthermore, I don't see what God has to do with anything we're arguing at all."

so what are YOU talking about?

cause im talking about how christian ideology butts heads with "rave" ideology.

I'm on the verge of ramming my fucking head into the wall here.


Let me go over this fucking slowly for you.

WHAT DOES THE EXISTANCE OF GOD HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING WE ARE ARGUING ABOUT CHRISTIANITY?

You are saying that Christianity is bad because of X, Y, and Z. I'm saying that X, Y, and Z isn't Christianity, it's Catholic dogma and the dogma of other widely practiced branches of Christianity. Not Christianity itself.

"God is at the very heart of Christian beliefs"
"Furthermore, I don't see what God has to do with anything we're arguing at all."

Nice out of context quoting.
God is at the very heart of Christiani beliefs, yes, I'm glad you understand this.
Now. God, AS AN ENTITY, has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ARGUMENT AT HAND, WHICH IS WHY I DIDN'T SAY A BLOODY THING ABOUT GOD IN THE FIRST PLACE.

cause im talking about how christian ideology butts heads with "rave" ideology.

Yeah, and I'm telling you that "Christianity" does not butt heads with it at all.

Catholic dogma certainly does, which is precisely what your argument is. Unfortunately, your understanding of Christianity is so limited that you think they're one and the same.

[Sean]

christianity: one god, one religion.

rave: anything goes. everything is equally valid.

i can only repeat myself so many times.

Yes, please, let's finish this off.

Christianity: One God, One Religion, Christian beliefs. ACCEPTANCE OF OTHERS.
Rave: Multiple Gods, Multiple Religions, Multiple beliefs. ACCEPTANCE OF OTHERS.

[oliver]

ok. lets go one thing at a time so we understand each other.

yes or no. christianity allows only one valid god in its belief system. and yes i mean christianity. im afriad you're in a bit of a bind if you're allowing more than one god in your "christian" religion sean.

[oliver]

Originally posted by Sean:


Yes, please, let's finish this off.

Christianity: One God, One Religion, Christian beliefs. ACCEPTANCE OF OTHERS.
Rave: Multiple Gods, Multiple Religions, Multiple beliefs. ACCEPTANCE OF OTHERS.

great. then you see my point. christian ideology butts heads with rave ideology? yes?

and yes they do both preach the acceptance of other people. that was never at issue.

christianity does however preach the invalidity of other, opposing faiths.

thanx for being entertaining!

[Sean]

christianity allows only one valid god in its belief system. and yes i mean christianity. im afriad you're in a bit of a bind if you're allowing more than one god in your "christian" religion sean.

Good Christian #1 believes there is one Christian God, yes.

He/she also believes that you should accept others whether or not they believe in that God.

Raver #1 believes in whatever he believes in, for arguments sake we'll say No God.

He/she also believes that you should accept others even if they believe in God.


Do you see my point? You don't have to think the other person is "right" to accept them.