Is It weird for Christians to be Ravers?

[*STARFISH*]

this is the most redundant argument ive ever heard..
ive heard the same thing back and forth..

so goin back to what the other sean (crackfiend) said :

personally i think its a pretty fucken stupid question...christians would only be against abusing your body with drugs, and doing drugs isn't essential to being a raver...there are some christian sects that don't like their parishiners doing anything other then praying and reading the bible, but there is sects like these in all religions..

emphasis on different Christian sects...

and what does God have to do with this whole arguement at all?

sorry, my two cents :kimmie:
(although interesting.. i just dont like bickering.. that is all. oh yah, and ~*pLuR*~ OK :silly: )

[Sean]

great. then you see my point. christian ideology butts heads with rave ideology? yes?

God, this is pointless.

PLUR. Peace, Love, Unity, Respect. I'll assume that's what you mean when talking about rave ideology. My entire argument, which I've now wasted about 30 minutes typing, says that this does not butt heads with Christianity at all. Your argument was that it does, you cited examples. All of those examples were examples of Catholic dogma, which is not Christianity. I tried to point this out but you chose to ignore it.

Can we agree to disagree at least then?

[oliver]

Originally posted by Sean:

Do you see my point? You don't have to think the other person is "right" to accept them.

my point is that at a RAVE, all religions/gods/belief systems are EQUALLY valid.

at a CHRISTIAN church, only one religion/god/belief system is valid, even though you can accept everyone as a person.

[oliver]

Originally posted by Sean:


God, this is pointless.

PLUR. Peace, Love, Unity, Respect. I'll assume that's what you mean when talking about rave ideology.

you dont need to assume. i told you multiple times exactly what i believe rave ideology to be.

Originally posted by Sean:

My entire argument, which I've now wasted about 30 minutes typing, says that this does not butt heads with Christianity at all. Your argument was that it does, you cited examples. All of those examples were examples of Catholic dogma, which is not Christianity. I tried to point this out but you chose to ignore it.

Can we agree to disagree at least then?

christian thinking says: lets agree to disagree. but we have two seperate opinions/beliefs that are incompatible

rave thinking says: we're both equally right.

thats another way to put it.

[Sean]

Originally posted by Junglet:
my point is that at a RAVE, all religions/gods/belief systems are EQUALLY valid.

at a CHRISTIAN church, only one religion/god/belief system is valid, even though you can accept everyone as a person.

Originally posted by Junglet:
yes.

the openmindedness and acceptance of all cultures, religions, and lifestyles that is (should be) part of rave is pretty different from the closeminded and constrained ideals that make up the base of christianity.

[oliver]

christianity: one valid god/one valid religion/belief system.

i call that close-minded and constrained.

sounds fairly reasonable to me...

[Sean]

rave thinking says: we're both equally right.

Ravers believe in whatever they believe in, and accept others for believing what they believe in.

Christians believe in what they believe in, and SHOULD accept others for believing what they believe in.

Your original argument was that a lot of Christians don't, and as a result all of Christianity is incompatible.

As shown in your original quote you also said that Christanity is against acceptance of other cultures and religions too. I'm glad you've changed your stance on that position at least.

[oliver]

ill be back after dinner. i hope you have some startling new revelations that christianity DOES in fact accept ALL religions and gods as equally valid and right. including atheism.

doublethink whut.

[oliver]

Originally posted by Sean:


As shown in your original quote you also said that Christanity is against acceptance of other cultures and religions too. I'm glad you've changed your stance on that position at least.

acceptance of all is different from all being equally right.

(back after dins, dont miss me too much)

[Sean]

christianity: one valid god/one valid religion/belief system.

Your argument would be fine if rave ideology was itself a single belief system. What it is though is the co-existence of several belief systems, including christianity, which is why you can't do a direct comparison like that. If you want to try to equate the two, you have to compare a single Christian to a single raver, which I did already but I'll do again.

Christian #1: Christian beliefs.
Raver #1: Atheist beliefs.
Raver #2: Muslim beliefs.
Raver #3: Buddhist beliefs.
Raver #4: Christian beliefs.
etc.

i hope you have some startling new revelations that christianity DOES in fact accept ALL religions and gods as equally valid and right. including atheism.

Raver #1 is Atheist, and therefore does not think that Christian #1 has an equally correct viewpoint (There either is a God or there isn't a God, you can't have both at the same time, therefore they both can't be "correct"). Since he's a good raver kid though, he accepts Christian #1's belief.

Christian #1 is Christian, and therefore does not think that Raver #1 has an equally correct viewpoint (There either is a God or there isn't a God, you can't have both at the same time, therefore they both can't be "correct"). Since he's a good christian kid though, he accepts Raver #1's belief.

See, you're arguing that every raver thinks every other raver has an equally correct viewpoint, but that's obviously not the case, because if it were you wouldn't be arguing with me about Christianity at all, you'd be saying that my beliefs were absolutely correct, and that yours are too, and let's be friends and do some drugs and listen to happy music!

Seriously, let's not kid ourselves here.

[lucy]

^ I was about to say something along the lines of there is no belief that accepts all others as right and valid, or if there is, those who hold that belief are very wishy washy in their thinking. There is no point to believing anything, and having faith in anything if you do not believe it to be absolutely true.

[Ryan Ross]

Well said sean.
Junglet, it is impossible for someone to hold a specific belief system (god, no god, mokeys are gods or WHATEVER) and hold everyones elses belief system as equally true! Otherwise they would have no firm beliefs! You can't believe in god and believe that you friends atheism is also correct. It just doesn't work that way.

All you can hope for is acceptance of others beliefs, which apparently is what christianity teaches. Whether or not its practiced that way is another matter completly.

[*KeLLnEsS*]

yah its kinda sucky keeping up your faith and being in the scene... bieng in church on sunday mnournings is sucky after a party

[Anjew]

wow... thanks for the replies...

[Sean]

I was expecting to come back here to find more replies that completely missed my point. Pleasant surprise. :kam:

[ty:rone]

2sweet.
personally i think ur expected to make a tonne of mistakes.
u learn when future and reality hits u
and u realize what u did wrong it's alrite
we're not expected to be perfect kuz if we were, then Jesus wouldn't be that powerful of a God and Hell (hence heaven) wouldn't really exist kuz then we'd be our own gods , etc.

but every religion, type of Christianity, etc etc have their set of beliefs and what's wrong and what's right.

I guess u are to choose what's the rights are and vice versa.

personally i don't think raves are good towards christianity kuz i had the worst image come to me at nasty 3 (or something) and ever since i always had a harsh negatory feeling when i trip/ or after i pop.

[Anjew]

I can not tell you how much i enjoy reading this thread sometimes...
the opinions and intelligence displayed by the majority here...
really awesome to see
I love this discussion..

[mapleleaf4ever]

It's also interesting to see how strong peoples viewpoints are on Religion, even amongst the non-religious people.

[mithridate]

i agree with..
HIM! *points in the general direction of the concession*
ya. him.

i may be totally off the mark here.. but if you are a devout follower of christianity, your suppose to do everything in the 'lord's name' and to furthur yourself and others in christianity goodness and other such loveliness
sooo..
if you are dancing to praise the lord and make yourself a better christian.. whilst spreading the 'love of the lord' to other fellow ravers (over the defeaning music no less, talk about being on a mission, eh??)
then good for you.!
if not...
THEN SHAME ON YOU. you may be on your way to christian hell

but since a whole schwack of people are going to hell in a hand basket... thats where the parties at.. no?
so i say...
when we all get there, lets rave together (pyrotechniks anyone?). the people in heaven will be jealous you can be sure ;)

[FlorpIncarnate]

Good posts, Sean and Oliver.

Having studied Christianity for a good number of years myself, I should make the point here that Christian doctrine holds "worldly pleasures" to be intrinsically evil, whereas the rave movement is primarily based on the pursuit of pleasure.

I should mention before I post relevant bible quotes here that I am an atheist, and thus have no intention to proselytize anyone.

"You cannot enjoy worldly pleasures and be a friend of God."
James 4:4

"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him"
1 John 2:15

Rave culture is based primarily on hedonism (The pursuit of or devotion to pleasure, especially to the pleasures of the senses; ie wordly pleasures). Christianity is fundamentally opposed to hedonism; in fact, hedonism would be classified as a doctrine of "pure evil" by Christian doctrine. It really has very little to do with any specifics, such as drugs, or loud music. It is the principle of spiritual vs worldly values.

So, to answer the question, rave culture is fundamentally at odds with christian doctrine at a philosophical level.

From what I can see, that is what your youth pastor is getting at, Anjew.

Those of you who believe that Christianity is exclusively about "loving everyone" or "being a good person" need to re-examine their religious classification. I personally find a lot of good in the Bible, particularly some of the teachings of Jesus; That certainly does not mean that I am a Christian. Christianity is a "full meal deal" as far as philosophies go. You can't have the fries without the soft drink and consider the meal complete (or logically cogent!).

Thanks for reading.

[Anjew]

^^
...
i enjoyed reading that a lot.

[Canar]

Rave culture is based primarily on hedonism (The pursuit of or devotion to pleasure, especially to the pleasures of the senses; ie wordly pleasures). Christianity is fundamentally opposed to hedonism; in fact, hedonism would be classified as a doctrine of "pure evil" by Christian doctrine. It really has very little to do with any specifics, such as drugs, or loud music. It is the principle of spiritual vs worldly values.

Having studied Christianity for a good number of years myself, I should make the point here that Christian doctrine holds "worldly pleasures" to be intrinsically evil, whereas the rave movement is primarily based on the pursuit of pleasure.

Great post, Florp, you'll find some karma from me for giving an insightful viewpoint on Christianity. I disagree with what you posted, mind you. Your verses quoted are taken slightly out of context.

I'm going to assume the Christian perspective entirely; it's not my personal world-view (I'm Theistic currently), but it's a good source of wisdom.

"You cannot enjoy worldly pleasures and be a friend of God."
James 4:4

Which translation does that come from? My NIV states: "You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God." Contextually, it's dealing with an early church's in-fighting, and is condemning a pursuit of a hedonistic lifestyle.

"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him"
1 John 2:15

Christianity itself is not as ascetic as you make it sound. God created pleasure for a reason. It is not pleasure itself that Christianity has issues with. It is a hedonistic lifestyle that is being criticized by those verses. For example, God made sex pleasant. It is not sinful to enjoy sex with your wife.

God made life pleasant. It was not meant to be a chore. Yet the pleasures he has placed on Earth can prove to be points of sin.

Here "the world" refers to the domain of Satan, which is approximately dogmatically equivalent. Like the previous verse, it's a caution against hedonism.

Those of you who believe that Christianity is exclusively about "loving everyone" or "being a good person" need to re-examine their religious classification. I personally find a lot of good in the Bible, particularly some of the teachings of Jesus; That certainly does not mean that I am a Christian. Christianity is a "full meal deal" as far as philosophies go. You can't have the fries without the soft drink and consider the meal complete (or logically cogent!).

Precisely. Glad to meet an atheist that gets this.

Being a Christian itself is sort of a sticking point. There's one person who knows for sure, God. Anyhow, the gift of eternal life (and freedom from eternal torment) is free to anyone who believes that Jesus Christ was the son of God and was brought to Earth to die to save us from our sins. However, if you believe that, you will likely also believe Christ's teachings, which are essentially to treat others as yourself (summed up succinctly by Christ himself).

Given that, it's not contradictory to be simultaneously a raver and a Christian. So long as you prevent yourself from descending into hedonism and placing rave culture above God, all is well. If you're a strong Christian, you could even have a positive influence on non-Christians as a raver. (To answer the question in the topic, it's kinda weird to be a Christian and a raver)

Drug use is a little sketchy. There are verses that claim (approximately) that going against societal laws is wrong. There are verses that condemn drunkenness, although it is unclear whether they condemn the altered state of consciousness or the the addiction to alcohol.

I have personal issues with Christianity if it claims that drug use is altogether evil. I've gained enormous insight from it. However, I don't know where it would fit in a true Christian lifestyle.

[FlorpIncarnate]

Ah, a good response!

Originally Posted by Canar

Which translation does that come from?

The Living Bible. Actually, I pulled that off of a website (http://www.christianadvice.net/sin.htm). Curiously enough, after pulling out my own living bible (and brushing off a little dust) I find the website quote to be a little off. The relevant part of the verse, from my living bible, states:

"Don't you realize that making friends with God's enemies--the evil pleasures of this world--makes you an enemy of God? I say it again, that if your aim is to enjoy the evil pleasure of the unsaved world, you cannot also be a friend of God."
James 4:4

So yeah, I guess the lesson learned is: beward of anonymous websites! Nevertheless, the gist is the same.

Originally Posted by Canar

Contextually, it's dealing with an early church's in-fighting, and is condemning a pursuit of a hedonistic lifestyle.

While it was addressed to the early church, it is of course intended to apply to all Christians. My interpretation after reading James 4 is that it is addressing lust for selfish earthly pleasures in general. I would certainly consider raves to be a selfish earthly pleasure (with no negative connotation on selfish).

Originally Posted by Canar

Christianity itself is not as ascetic as you make it sound. God created pleasure for a reason. It is not pleasure itself that Christianity has issues with. It is a hedonistic lifestyle that is being criticized by those verses. For example, God made sex pleasant. It is not sinful to enjoy sex with your wife.

God made life pleasant. It was not meant to be a chore. Yet the pleasures he has placed on Earth can prove to be points of sin.

This is actually still a point of theological contention in the Christian community... different denominations take different stands on that. I have an article which deals with this issue (which takes your position, incidentally), and I highly reccommend it for anyone struggling on this point. An excerpt:

A major part of the distrust of the physical realm has been a distrust of the senses. This has been particularly true when it comes to sexual pleasure, but Christians have also often depreciated all of the senses as leading to over much indulgence in physical pleasure, whether those are associated with food (a major competitor with sex for lowest value) or even the enjoyment of seeing and smelling the roses. All have been suspect at times as taking the Christian's focus from God. The tragedy is that it is God himself who has given us not only the senses, but those things in the world to which the senses respond.

You can find the full article here.

Consider that Jesus himself was highly ascetic. The general trend in Christianity is to eschew earthly values to concentrate more on 'Godly' ones. I think we can agree on that. The difference is how extreme one interprets the bible on this issue, which of course differs between denominations of the same religion. I should point out that while you *may* be correct about pleasure not being inherently evil in Christianity (again, it depends on which sect of Christianity you ask!!!), I think we can still agree that hedonism (again, the active persuit of worldly pleasure for oneself) is definitely sinful. Ergo, the rave 'philosophy'-if you can call it that-is at odds with the general moral trend of Christianity.

As a side note, it is important to note that Paul suggests that it is better to avoid sexual pleasure than to partake in it. There is not a clear sin/safe boundary here, though. Read 1 Corinthians 7. The gist of it is that it is better to stay away from sexuality completely, as to better concentrate on God (keep in mind that Jesus did not take a wife). However, if you cannot do this, it is a good idea to marry, so that you avoid sinning by adultery. A good article on this issue is here. My point here is that, while pleasure in this specific case is not a sin, it is still undesirable. Again, the acetic trend is undeniable.