Jan 26, 06
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A large percentage of concessions made for varying oppressed peoples have come from direct response, resistance or demands made from such grassroots organizations representing, or made up of this groups. I dont call: -a chair group made of 3 members -a coordination team of 15 members -an organization team of 15 members -an outreach team of 6 members -a regular core group of over 50 members -a less regular group of over 300 members -a phone list reaching beyond 8000(also connected to a series of varrying petition drives) -over 50 endorsing socio-political avtivist related organizations, businesses, and newspaper -strong connections with other groups across Canada, the US, and Cuba - 22 rallies -strong bonds with student councils and antiwar/occuaption organizations at Capillano, UBC, Douglas, Langara, Kwantlen, UVIC, and SFU -strong bonds with CUPE, BCTF, TWU. CMG, HEU -over 20 workshops -4 weekend long conferences -3 film festival -4 Student Weeks against War and Occuaption -24 newsletters -over 100 pickets anywhere close to a local fringe movement, considering this has all been achieved in less than 2 years. So spare me the dialect, that paints, current anti-governmental movements as fringe. I except many Canadian, feel they are in a comfort zone they are unwilling to shake up, but i also believe a combination of non-representaional government, artificial diffusion, increasing power of a ruling elite, large corporations and the war drive is starting to get people to ask questions, and start making connections. I do not believe, no have i ever prescribed to any significant change in a revolutionary sence in the next decade, or even my life, but as it goes, its a process, and in the past in other such revolutions, had taken the long term planning, organization, education and unification of a long chin of people over many years. I also do not neccesarely have a blanket approach to anyone and everyone who is trying to evoke change, through working from inside the "system" I have had the fortune to meet many such men and women, undertaking this task. But realistically they depend on more grassroots initiatives, and vice verca. It is essential for grassroots mobilization, to stay focussed, keep up strict levels of self education, informing the public and in the midst of this, iron dicipline and organization. It is imperative for those working in the system, to not lose focus, on the ultimate goal, not become demoralized, and not to be clouded by feelings that may include wanting to surpass the movement, or for individual acolades. SO basically, i agree that there needs to be people working within the system, from the inside out, and grassroots mobilization working from the outside in. 
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Jan 27, 06
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fable you could get double that many people out to a frat party at ubc and they arent even that popular...guess what you are in the minority, you are an extremist and you do need to start taking your lithium again. p.s labour unions are not grass roots.
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Jan 27, 06
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Regardless if I have or have not been placed on ignore by fable, I refuse to let him escape this debate in anythign less than a sheer embarassment for himself. The final retorts he typed are so frail and thoughtless I cannot stand to let them be the last words.
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Israel was given back to the jews following wwII, as the victorious nations felt guilt over the occurences which had just transcribed. The jews had been over run in their homeland hundreds of years prior. The muslims that lived in what is now israel WERE natives to the land. They had lived and inhabited the region for generation after generation. It was their home, all they knew. Similiarly, foreign settlers i.e europeans, asians etc, have called lands like canada and america our homes for generations, and any 'indegenous' persons alive today know nothing other than what is before them. You fight the class system, favouring the rich, adn those are born rich, yet you argue to the death over indegenous rights, based solely on ancestry. Am I the only one who sees this is completely and utterly hypocritical? Likewise in South America and mexico, the Spanish settled, but they all consider themselves 'Mexican' etc. What you work for only drives ethnic groups and religions farther and farther away from each other. Diversity is great, multi culturalism is great, however we all need to learn to live with, and respect each others differences. Your ancestry and where you were born shouldn't have to determine the rest of your life. my comment:. This is why war after war still rages on in Africa and the middle east, said nations are smaller, and lack possession of womd. To break down the superpowers would be to unleash hell upon earth. Quote:
First off, how is this comment racist? The fact that War's have waged through out time, every where in the world, through out europe, africa, the americas, asia... None stop constant wars, one after another, is a fact. I was stating that the reason wars are still raging on in the middle east and africa, is simply because these nations ahve yet to amass such artillery and weapons to posess the power to completely destroy their enemies. if western and far eastern nations did not posess these weapons, I have no doubt wars would still be waging every where in teh world. My statement did not imply that the people in said regions were of any lesser quality, just that the nations whom represented them lacked the technology on all sides, to put enough fear into the current wars to call truces. I am selfish to an extent. I think of myself first, always, no matter what. I believe that I cannot effectively help those around me, until I first deal with the problems facing myself personally, and thus far in my life it has served me well. However I am not racist, nor am I small minded. I admit to being completely ignorant on many subjects, there is only so much one man, especially at the age I am, could possibly know. Oh and fable, one last thing, if I am on his ignore someone please forward this to him, if you do qoute me in some editorial, make sure you reference it. My full name is Alexander Thomas Tarnava and you can forward a copy to my e-mail address at [email protected], I have a feeling the article might be amusing. If you fail to comply, legal ramifications may ensue. thank you, and have a great day.
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Jan 27, 06
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Ill use an event like the Winnipeg General Strike - i think it was around 1919, and in the face of overwhelming governmental oppression over 19000 people took to the streets. This was in no way set out like a strikes of today. Sure there where Union Organizers, but they far more resembled rankinfile members, then union leaders of today. The strike was eventaully put down with massive violence. Police officers rode through the crowds at full gallop. Strikers where pulled into alleyways and beaten to near death. Why? Because the government of Canada wanted to make a point, wanted to get the message out, that you just dont fuck with the so called representative, and administrators of a nation. Why did i bring this up? Because i feel there is going to be a return to a specific mentality. Both on the part of the Unions and the Government of Canada. As further division, and suppression of workers rights to strike for better working conditions or mainly to hold onto working conditions that were fought for with blood and lives in the past, so will the current Union rankinfile members resist. They have to, otherwise one precedent is broken and a far more dangerous and sinister one begins. So technically, your right, the current structures are not grassroots, BUT they were, and i personally belive that the related mentality will return. Dont agree? Cool. But, small changes have already began. Overtime has been based on a 4 week period for awile now, but it was actaully based within the work week no more than five years ago (i think?) There is also the training wage, that gives employers the opportunity to exploit the system with relative ease. Do we really need to talk about minimum wage? In this day and age, living in the lower mainland may not be difficult for you or I, but theres no way anyone can ignore the rising struggle of regular people to survive. Employers no longer have to post employment standards in their respective places of business, nor do they actaully have to go over them with their employees. These are just a few example, but it clearly shows a growing trend. Quote:
The idealogy that i prescribe to isnt anything new, and has lead to significant humanitarian evolution across the globe, across time. I dont deny that you could probably get out double the crowd out to a UBC frat party, i know from personal experience( FIGI, and KapSig parties were quite the experience for a 17 year old boozehound!) But what is the point of the statement? What does it say? That people would much rather come out en mass for a party then some political event? Of course they would, hell i would! But is this a reason to slow down or stop antiwar/occupation activism or a reason to intensify it? Id say, in this day and age, especially in the midst of a conservative government, that over 300 regularely active, 1000 at the very least supportive, and a core group of atleast 30 is a strong statement. Every event that we organized over the last 12 months far surpassed the turnout, and energy than the year prior, and the year before that. The impact, and generation of interest may not be anywhere close to lets say a rave, or a DNB headliner coming to town, so the fact, that you felt the need to comment on this phenomenon is uneccesary, and redundant. I never NEVER once said, significant change will happen immedietly. I have come to accept that significant change may not even happen in my life, but, that doesnt matter. I feel like im able to live somewhat normally, and still can achieve personal satisfaction, in congruence with a socio-political activist mindset, so im okay. I also have to mention that i am well aware that people involved in socio-political activism are in the minority, the environment both creates this, and at the same time demands it. I firmly believe that with much time and consistant effort, on the part of those who take up either an active role, or not, that a large scale heightening of collective consciouness can and will happen. There has almost always been war and occupation as far back as one can remember, but now is a time, like anyother. The current actions are slowly becoming transparent in the mainstream, they are brazenly aggressive, and today, we see resistance movements, stronger and more organized than ever. Is it like this in Canada? No. No it isnt, i admit this, but just over several years ago, when the Iraq Occupation began, the people where in the streets, and across the world. Did the energy die? No. It wasnt intensified, it wasnt focussed, and there was no longterm plans set in place. But people learn from mistakes, like in any facet of life. And so did thousands over organizations across the planet learn. I find it amusing your always one of the first people to jump in and slag me, after i essentailly get my hands tied behind my back, because i lost it one too many times. But i guess im learning more too, so respect to your beliefs, and respect to day, when they crumble in your hands. ez
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Jan 27, 06
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On Racism: In reading comments that have some basis, or a majority of premise based on ideas that are either generalistic or srping from a root of prejudice, one may be inclined to believe that it is set up in a fashion to demean, or weaken the inherent strength of a sovereign nation. Re: The Middle East/Africa - Both areas and their many nations have been under foreign occupation since the early 1900s. To think that the current plight of both areas is indacative of said nations inability to come together and unify, and "sort itself out" is shear ignorance of the inherant racist based violence, oppression and exploitation that came with colonialization and foreign manipulation This is a portion of my beliefs on what racism is, and how ive come to grow to understand it. By ignoring the main aspects of the root causes of historical and current levels of social fragmentation, one places the blame solely on the indegenous peoples and in doing so there indegenous race. It is a style of racism that is somewhat subversive, not overly transparent, but ulitmately far more reaching and prevalent today. On Israel: -the hebrew people where in fact kidnapped into slavery during the age of Nebuchadnessar around the 6th century, when he lead the babylonians to crush the assyrians, and in doing so conquered judah. -the hebrew captivaty lasted well over 60 years, until it was conquered by Persia. But few Isrealites actaully wanted to leave. It wasnt until around 538 BC that the people returned to zion, and with a theology deeply influenced by Zoroastrian Persians. It is said that all Judaism, Islam and Christianity owe their existance to thse Zorastrains. further through time -Palestine in then PM of England Loyd Georges mind, was the property of britians as just penance for saving Europe from germany0 - Around this same time the Zionist movement was orchestrating plans of their own. Lead by Chaim Weizmann, the zionist movement worked with Britian. Although Palestine was suppossed to be overlooked by France and Britian, Britian understood that it would only be able to control the important Suez Canal if they had primary control. Thus there was a bond between britains rulers and the zionist movement. On that would promise a homeland for the Jewish people. This of course in the midst of Britain Promising a large portion of Palestine for Arabic rule alongside self determination for Iraq, if they aided Britian in conquering the turkish. What does all this mean? Well firstly your attempt at a sumation of the plght of Israel and Palestine, is the most generalized, simplified, garbage ive heard. Hell, i bet even a zionist would agree with me! Why you brought up Israel im not sure, but since these early days of manipulation and essentially Britian promising the zionist front land that was never theres to give, a massive program of annexation, violence, starvation, psychological warfare, theft of farm land, through rhetorical policy, that essentailly steals land on a technicality, that is perpetuated by the aparthied wall, and all out war, still rages today. On Hypocricy and the Indegenous Peoples of Canada: -whether it is Indigenous people of Canada, or Bolivia, the land and culture that belongs to such people was stolen through brutal methods, assimilation and or genocide. -the fact that this action is still carried out, in a far more subversive, fashion does not excuse this agenda from its more violent roots. To accept this action simply on the fact that is has happened across the globe is to ignore the inherant rights of tens of millions of indegenous peoples in their respective land. -If there is any legitimacy left in the notion of democracy, and humanitarianism, in such bodies as the UN, and specific governments, then to go along with this annexation of Indegenous land, and assimilation of Indigenous culture would be THE TRUE HYPOCRICY ^And if one is supposed to accept this Hypocricy, simpley on the merits of a belief that stipulates one must take care of themselves first, and go along with the flow of the world (specifically governmental rule) then one must also be ably to deny the legitemacy of such structures that prescribe to uphold such ideals as democracy and humanitarianism > therefore there exists a contridiction of the most massive of kinds> ~I must go along with current governmental rule in light of massive hypocricy, because it is these structures that uphold democracy and humanitarianism, even though the hypocricy clearly shows that these governmental structures uphold anything but!??
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Jan 27, 06
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first off fable, you clearly missed my point regarding current wars in africa and the middle east. Your rebuttals, albeit typical fable comments, make absolutely no sense in the present context.
My israel point was basically just a general run through of how an 'indegenous' people returned to their homeland, which was, subsequently someone else's homeland, and everythign went to hell. I know personally if I controlled Canada, and the natives tried to 'take it back' i would make no concessions. It is all of our homes, regardless of who's ancestors were here first. That way of thinking is completely bullshit. no matter what way you try to present the situation fable, it is no longer their land, they need to get over it. I could claim my ancestors were over thrown royalty, and that billions in gold was stolen from my family, and I could cry, adn bitch and complain, but would I get anything? No, it was never mine, my family had lost this imaginary money centuries ago. Does this make my life any harder? No, the only factor causing the bitterness and resentment is the thought of what I COULD have had. You probably don't understand why I gave you that little story, seeing as you are thick headed and slow, and only grasp concepts which have been spoon fed to you by other extremists. It was a metaphor for the current native situation. if they are integrated into society as equals, all their reserves, treaty cheques etc done away with, their will be no reason for racism, their will be no feuding. they will just be Canadians, and will have the same oppurtunities the rest of the nation enjoys. Natives are being coddled to death as we speak. theya re being given everythign they need to survive, however arn't learning important life lessons. The government is giving them a fish every day, rather than teaching them to fish, so to speak. Take off your blind fold fable, your stance on the indegenous peoples is completely and utterly ridiculous, and wouldn't even profit the natives as a society, short term, or long term. They are being given a lot right now, what makes you think giving them more, and returning all of their lands would help? It would only make the problems worse.
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Jan 27, 06
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All you give me in reply is an admittance that you are a selfish, self centered person. Coupled with this more attacks based on assumptions of how i have formulated my own opinions and ideaology. I disagree with everything and anything that resembles who you are, and what you believe in. As your ability to put things into a relevant contextual framework is far beyond your grasp. Your methods and beliefs center around assimilation, cultural conformity, an ignorance of state sponsored theft of land and resources, continous attacks on social structures, and essentially the basis for any program of racism, classism, and inhumane program. You have not elaborated, or expanded on any of your arguments, since day one, and still rely on a view of the world that lends some sort of credibility to your own insignificant, and reproachable life. Your attempt, at the historical metaphor, or using historical events as examples for today, are simplistic, over generalized and factually incorrect. Your grasp of Israel and its history, is grossely lacking, so any intention of using it in any legitimate context was lost. Alex, im a 27 year old man, whos been in post secondary education since 1996, i have done extensive travelling , been involved in 2 major international huminatarian efforts, and have grown up, and been influenced by socialist parents. I am a visible minority that had grown up in massive racism,both structurally and directly/personally. I am a recovering addict/alcoholic that will be clean and sober for one year in two weeks. I have a management certificate, 2 years of criminal law/psych/philosophy, my chefs papers, and have been a practising free lance graphic designer since 1998. On a personal note, i am blindly empathetic, a hard core history junkie, and have come from 3 major religeons. I was made to study all three as a course of growing up, and have been involved in all three. I was a practisin Hindu until i was 18. I have been involved in political activism for the last year full time, and the last decade, on and off. I am a member or supported of 2 major indigenous rights groups, one time member of the Fiji Canada association, supporter of the United Muslim Youth Alliance, member of the Mobilization Against War and Occupation, Vancouver Communities in Solidarity With Cuba, The Canadian Haiti Solidarity Group, and Free the Cuban 5 group. Why the semi-bio? I'm not too sure really, i think it is essentailly to counter your beleif that im galavanting on some idealistic fantasy, that has no academic, or tangible real world experience. This is really only a brief glance into what ive done, and where ive been, but personally,( although im no where satisifed with my own accomplishments, and feel like i have much to learn and offer), i think ive done okay, and firmly believe that my beliefs today are entrenched in a well rounded, experienced, life, including mass struggle, triumpth, and being fortunate and privaleged enough to meet countless inspiring people along the way. I have invited you numerous times to an event, and you have not accepted, The invitation is still on the table. But like the reality, you prescibe to, with irresponsible abandon - in person - all bets are off.
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Jan 27, 06
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"fuck u n00b! i r teh shit!" "no mang! u teh n00b! fuck u!" "fuck dat fag0t! u fuck n00b!" "fuck u! i fukin own you fag!" and so on and so forth... I respect that these guys, obviously with different opinions, are writing essays on how each other are wrong with so much thought and passion...
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Jan 27, 06
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Im not too sure what your actaully saying liam? The first example could be a metaphor on how our words are bullshit, and immature, but then the second paragraph you talk about respect, and point out there is thought and passion involved?
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Jan 28, 06
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If youd like to surpass this back and forth, and actaully grab some balls and get in some real dialogue, then i invite you to a rally put on by the Mobilization Against War and Occupation, tommorow at the VAG, starting at 2pm. We have tons of guest speakers from all manners of communities, tons of university/college student reps, some savage hiphop from the likes of the four man pack "Influence" and well have tables set up with tons and tons of literature. We also have a wrap party for a hugely succesful Student Week Against War and Occupation that hosted numerous events across universitites and colleges across the lower mainland. Theyll be some beats, eats and hella speakers. If i dont sleep through it, ill be throwing down some spoken word, and if that aint your cup of tea, their will be tons of other entertainment. I see by your avatar, that your an east end cat, so it wont be far. Its @ "El Cocal" which is the NW corner of Napier and Commerical Drive. I would really like to see you come out, because im assuming all your shit talk is as a result of some assumptions about my character that you are making. Why dont you come out, and see if they are true? Im much better, and less heated in person, and there will be tons of other people there. Give it a chance, check it out. feel free to call me if you need any more intel. 604.719.7419 -shakeel (this is my attempt at being diplomatic in the face of all out baseless angst, If you still feel like throwing shit my way, then do it in person like a man. Otherwise i hope we can meet up, and have some real human, conversation) pc/ez Last edited by fable; Jan 28, 06 at 03:08 AM.
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Jan 28, 06
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For fucks sake, being criptic isnt always a good thing. Im sorry im missing something obvious here, but i dont have the time to philosophize and research the formula youve put forth.
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Jan 28, 06
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[quote=fable]Yo, give me a fucking representation of what this theology looks like in reality, fill it out with some tangible context, and historical examples! Otherwise, im assuming youve decide to pour some rhetorical, abstract bullshit over my head in an attempt to undermine something you disagree with, instead of actaully making some substantial qualitative comments.
For fucks sake, being criptic isnt always a good thing. Im sorry im missing something obvious here, but i dont have the time to philosophize and research As Confucius said, "He who flings dirt, only loses ground." This whole thread is just a big dick wagging contest. Politics is not Left/Right. The equation means that without one the other does not exist. Ruling out the possibility of one ever being right or on the winning side. Politics is 100% pure endless 24/7 Bullshit. Anarchy in future primitive sense is the only way that worked for 1000's of years. Man went wrong a looooooooong time ago. http://www.primitivism.com/future-primitive.htm PS: I'll try my best to stop by the VGA @ 2 tomorrow.:nerd:
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Jan 28, 06
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Jan 28, 06
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again with your brainwashing groups. never in a million years would i go hang out with people like that. those types drive me crazy.
listen shakeel or whatever, if you want to learn some truth about everything you think you know, go east. until you figure out what that means and attain the appropriate knowledge, keep flapping your gums; it is quite entertaining. first clue, knowledge about the real world does not come from the internet. anyways, take care and have fun....
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Jan 28, 06
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Your a big enough man to talk shit over the internet, but not enough to engage me in dialogue in person? Now youve become my travel agent, and given me tips on how to research without any personal knowledge of who i am, what i do, where ive been or even what im doing?
Whats next? A makeover?
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Jan 28, 06
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and your travel agent? buddy, come on. if you had the slightest idea of what you were talking about (your esoteric views about the world), you'd know that going east has nothing to do with travelling...
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Jan 29, 06
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Jan 29, 06
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buddy you really need to go talk to dr phil.
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