Jan 25, 06
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The terms you use in the last paragraph come as a result of other peoples flippancy and callousness in the context of their prose. I NEVER start off like i end., i dont think to many people can dispute this, but throught the context of being pissed of by people lack of ability to put things together, and yet still speak like they have even a shred of what they are talking about, i lose my shit. Perhaps trying to get back into meditation, or just getting some sleep, hell maybe taking a vacation from school and activist work might help, but its not warranted, and especially with our new government. I could care less that people debate, its healthy, and heated battles are consistent and in keeping with the state of the world. As long as things cut to the core. Its a painful process, and people get their back, we all do, we're talking about how we are going to survive as a society- arent we?? Blah, blah, however you always make sence terrance, and i gotta tell you - this line - ..."full on ad-hominem attacks..." was gold! I continue to endevour, to chill on the righteousness. But i always give fair warning that ignorance in the face of oppression, is the quickest way, to turn a thread into a massive shit fest. thx, for the advice- ez 
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Jan 25, 06
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Jan 25, 06
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Yea but the biggest problem is you have already set the precedent for your fly-off-the-handle rants and incapability of not degenrating into a pissing contest if people a) disagree or b) push your buttons (or both). And people know it.
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And again, grow a thicker skin. This place has been a cesspool of shallow flaming, flame-baiting, and useless arguements (generally regarding *raves* - i mean c'mon) long before you showed up. It's not going to become some forum for academic social debate or some platform for grassroots political activism just because you throw a hissy-fit everytime someone makes fun of you. The people that agree are going agree and if you keep the "attitude" out of your posts, you may even sway some people to your cause. The people that disagree intelligently are great to create a (sensible) dialogue. The flame-baiters and the button-pushers are just trying to get a reaction which you deliver in spades.
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Jan 25, 06
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I just had to say to this: True enough. very good advice, and not just for Fable - who I think has some very good points and ideas, but I find it hard to read them because they are always too heated... honestly, I am the same way when I get angry/etc... What I usually do is hit the reply and then leave it for a bit and come back when I am not so angry and THEN respond. That way I am addressing the issue, but I won't be as angry and my retorts will make more sense (or so I find)... anyways, this is just my personal way of dealing with anger problems (lol)...
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Jan 25, 06
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I accepted your advice, and thanked you as well, but spare me these comments. Your comments center around style of presentation, which in the end is a superficiality compared to the importance of the content. I WILL try to rethink my approach, and I DO accept the level of active social consciousness in this arena, but i will not accept, pure ignorance on the basis that, there has always been ignorance. How is that indicative to evoking change? Why does thinking in these terms automatically make someone think, i get some sort of personal satisfaction out of it? Why do people need to refer to my persistance in bringing up such issues as ego based? It isnt until two or three people, launch the bullshit attack, that i lose my shit. If we want to get specifc, then YES, i do need to seperate different peoples replies, into those who are just trying to take the shit out of me, and those who want to engage in real debate. But sometimes the lines get blurred( jay autos and mine recent back and forth) I took it on the chin for awhile, but my abilitity to hold out, is still somewhat fledgling. blah blah blah, i do take what you got to say terrance to heart. But i am not willing to change everything pertaining to my delivery just yet, not because of a fragile ego, but simply because of the need for more socio-political agitation, anywhere, everywhere 24/7. ez
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Jan 25, 06
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Although from what little i know about you, i cant see you launching into full scale, rantyness - you seem to have a very cool head on yeah.
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Jan 25, 06
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sad to say but nowadays, presentation counts more than content - especially in the faceless world we call the internet.
doesn't mean it's right but it's the way a lot of people think. Think of it as trying to change things within the system vs trying to smash the system to reshape it. People are judgemental and shallow and superficial - even the most intelligent ones - if you want to create a message for a movement - are you so sure you're not doing more to turn people away via "agitation" than getting people to understand your point of view via a less-heated form of discourse? I'm all for social agitation - but only to the right targets... agitate the people with the power or causing the opression or whatever, don't agitate the people you potentially want on your side.
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Jan 25, 06
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Please note, i know im not doing the best job of said agitation on this site (im much better in person, or writing editorial based articles) But lets say there is in fact a method of agitating the populace - so much so, that its is next to impossible to continue ones old ways of thinking without the very least of intropection - turned socio-political researching- but doing so without burning any bridges? I know there is, i just havent matured enough to a point, where i can initiate such dialogue, but it will happen. I hope. The overt oppression by a small elite, and the government that represents them is actaully perpetuated by a lack of knowledge of such activities in the general populace. How? Well weve talked about this before - -mainstream media providing anything but real journalistic accounts -divisionary tactics that scape goat various religeous, ethnic, and economically related class associated groups -illusions of choice everywhere from consumerism to VOTING -lack of acess to real governmental/societal interaction just a few ways, but this is the real challenge at the moment. Nobody is prepared to march up to parliment and tear it down, and instill a more socially conscious, non-oppressive, rule that isnt based on artificial economic predictions, and essentailly material wealth at the cost of real equality. They would get slaughtered. We are still a long way from that. First the populace needs to unify, SO yes, again, i am growing to understand the need for some level of composure, but this and some real heat are in fact a fine balance.
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Jan 25, 06
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Yea, I know what you mean about trying to snap people out of the inherhant brainwashing of the system and accepting things at face value - like I said I used to hang with (and be somewhat of a) marxist activist, but it's amazing how many people have bought into the existing system as some natural order.
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Jan 26, 06
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fable fable fable.
you really need to step back and look at what you are saying. you talk so much crap in your posts, that you are just going around and around in a circle; all at the expense of trying to look intelligent. take your head out of your ass for a second. and for the record, i don't think this way about you because of your stance on anything (i might agree with most of it even), i think this way about you because you just, plain and simple, are one of those stupid fools who think they know everything. it gets really tiresome to have to scroll past your posts because they always contain the same garbage... but regardless, carry on, i know you're going to...
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Jan 26, 06
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The only way i see major change happening is if we first promote electoral reform allowing fringe parties a seat in Parliament. Promoting new ideas and progressively pushing the movement to the upper chamber.
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Jan 26, 06
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I find it utterly amazing(you got some talent!) That you managed to state that you ~may~ agree with my stance, THEN tell me im a stupid fool, THEN tell me that my posts contain garbage, and THEN follow it with an admittance that you dont really read my posts anyways? So basically, you agree with my stance, think im stupid, think my posts are garbage, but never read them? This all of course after failing to answer any of my questions, and being the first to bring up "stupid Canadians" One of the easiest things to do, is heckle from the sidelines sporto, put up, or shut up. Also, how can you assume that i think i know everything? Ive stated multiple times that i clearly dont, that i spend a large chunk of my life these days researching, talking, reading, talking, listening, writing.... Does this sound like the modus operandi, of someone who "claims" to know everything? A few of my faults, is i got a short fuse, and a problem with patience, and blatant ignorance - if this makes me a stupid fool, then so be it, but this stupid fool is working at helping make change, internally, and externally. What are you doing? How is it working for you? Shakeel Lochan 604.719.7410 Last edited by fable; Jan 26, 06 at 04:40 AM.
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Jan 26, 06
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you really don't seem to get it do you?
as everyone else has already pointed out (in this thread and others), you just go around and around and around; with no end in sight. it truly is comical. why would i ever want to discuss anything with you? it wouldn't go anywhere. you're like a fucking broken record. go play your stairway to heaven backwards and pretend, hah. and what i'm doing seems to be working just as well for the other 6.1 million of us. :]
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Jan 26, 06
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fable has clearly proven he is a second level thinker at best; regardless he is no more of a free thinker than the regular populace, he has simply been brain washed by the oppressed, devoting himself to various causes, rather than stepping in line with the oppressors.
fable: life is all about choices. The choice you've made, which I obviously have not, is to rebel against the establishment, dedicating your life to pursuing causes which generally shouldn't be any of your concern. The established government we have is far from perfect, however, it is one of the most socially responsible governments that exists on the planet today. By waging war on the establishment, you only make your life harder. You've tried to tell me that I've given up, lost hope etc. These statements are completely assumptionary-you're assumign that I cared, or even remotely believed in the issues you feel so strongly about in the first place. Lack of caring does not equal ignorance, and neither does disagreeance. Self determination, or seperation of the various nations into smaller city states, would ultimately lead to countless wars, genocides, oppression etc. You ask why I make these statements? it's human nature. Western civilization lives in a sate of relative peace due to a single human emotion: fear. due to the fact that so many nations weild enough power of a destructive nature, and that said nations or intertwined in various alliances amongst eachother, is the only reason full out war has yet to break out. This is why war after war still rages on in Africa and the middle east, said nations are smaller, and lack possession of womd. To break down the superpowers would be to unleash hell upon earth. Now let's talk about your debating skills. I'm going to be honest with you fable, I don't like you. I don't agree with what you have to say; that being said your recent escapades, including your complete and utter break down of any semblance of a persuasive argument, your dissilutions of granduer, coupled with hysterical rantings, I feel the need to share some of my wisdom with you. not my political beliefs, or any facts, I wouldn't kid myself, it's pointless. basically, through my years of experience i have discovered that ideas can be sold just as easily as material objects. Being who I am, a well respetced individual in my community who's sole purpose is to train others to hopefully learn from my expertise and eventually reach some of the pinnacles of sales performaces I achieved, I feel the need to assist you with a few pointers. First off, the worst possible move is to turn a conversation into an argument. Regardless of how flawed, or idiotic, your debatees points are, the more you lash into them, and attempt to tear them into shreads, the stronger they will hold onto them, and the more they will shut out anything you say. Rather, keep your temper and a straight face, attempt to understand why the person believes or feels the way they do, and show them you understand where they are coming from. Now you will have said person's undivided attention, and if your points are really valid, and you can prove to them how your views could benefit themselves, because humans think solely about our own well being 90% of the time, as well how it would benefit others, or society as a whole, if delivered properly you may sway said person to your cause. I'll let you soak this in first, and if you'd like to learn more, feel free to ask.
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Jan 26, 06
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-because in regards to the general population stating this(i dont mean you specifically, i understand the statement was one of a general, encapsulating nature) i believe it to be either a flat out lie, OR an observation made without taking into context the reality that the majority of citizens, who are generally "satisfied" with their lives exist in a class structure that in general is partially to completely anaware of the realities faced by those who struggle in the class structures below. How? In the capitalist system we exist in today, we are taught, that with enough hard work, and for long enough, we can all live happy fruitful lives. This happyness is perpetuated by accumulation, and consumption of material wealth. The education system in Canada, isnt in place to prepare and train the youth for benefitting humanity, its for benefitting thr production of goods, to perpetuate a capitalist/profit #1 system, and in the most extreme cases it produces people who will carry on the mantle of oppressors. Every expert that comes out of university, has come out of a landscape that has attempted to mold them, to use their expertise for PROFIT. Now, this isnt to say, that there arent in fact a large number of students who dont try to commit to contributing to "humanity" in a tangible sence, but it doesnt last long in this culture we have developed. Im not speaking in the sense that i dont like hard work, or i want to be coddled. Ive worked my ass off since i was 12, and worked through highschool, university, chefs school and now art school. I beleive a great many of students know, and participate in this life, but for what ends? And for how long? And how are the current rewards trully beneficial to anything outside of our own individual lives? The contingent of people who are completely satisified is small. This is a generalization, but how could someone trully be satisfied with the state of a nation, with everything that is going on in the world? Is this my beliefs only? I dont think so, i think intrinsically, humanity is measured by our ability to be concerned about the well being of our comrades, in the present and in the future. For these "fringe" parties to exist and survive, there must be a large civilian support base. A base that doesnt entrust their representatives with "getting the job done" but a base that works THROUGH their representative. Ill use Cuba for an example. Now the situation isnt peachs n pudding, BUT most of the poverty in the nation today is a DIRECT result of 30 or so years of the most extreme of trade embargos, that penalizes not only Cuba, but other nations who try to negotiate with Cuba. But asides, the general population of youth in the nation are SO HIGHLY politicised, they practically ARE the fringe parties. There is an inherant understanding that education in that nation is to support the state, and humanity in general. Take cuban doctors for example, they are EVERYWHERE! Why? Because their grasp of what education is about, is not primarily about profit or self service, but some tangible idea of a greater cultural and humanitarian contribution. But enough about Cuba, Canada is a completely different landscape. A landscape which is essentially a rat race. A landscape where the most common phrase is " yeah, things should be different, but theyre not, so we have to play the game." My own belief tells me, those who are trully suffering, are suffering beyond belief, and those who are extremely well off, have no clue, what the state of the general population is like, I mentioned before, how this could be, and there are even more structures in place to carry such illusion feeding. Government in Canada, and the US is so inaccesable for most people, its almost frighterning. We all know how frustrating it really is, trying to get time with out reps, and thats just for a brief conversation. Coupled with this, is a general disinterest in the inner workings of the state. HOW? WHY? Its a circle in my opinion, one that consistently breeds dicension amonst the general populace, class wars, and a dog eat dog mentality. So really, i do agree with reforms being made to get more fringe party representatives in power, but look at our last election!? People wanted change, they wanted rid of the a percieved corrupt and incapable liberal government and they voted CONSERVATIVE!?!? If this doesnt atleast display a partial ignorance on the part of many voters, in regards to a specific parties historical, and precedential definitions, then WHAT DOES?? There needs to be more political experimentation. If we are willing to let a party that is essentially the more radical right of the prior government come into power, because of a desperate need for change, then why wouldnt people vote green? Hell even NDP would have been a better solution. But a lot of people start talking "economy" they start talking "tax breaks" and they continue in the rat race, oblivious to what there consumerism, and capitalist dictated lives do to the the bottom 50% of the citizenry in respect to class, and economic hardship. But to facilatate, this experimentation, and to instill a level of confidence, in the more conservative, and safe betting population, there needs to be EDUCATION. But how do we commit, and excercise this education, without being consumed by the current state of the school systems and what their true mandate is? Grassroots? Perhaps, thats what we are doing right now, in the name of trying to build a movement. But if this is all there is, without, an exponential growth of participation, specifically by the youth and students of this country, then we are doomed, to repeat our political mistakes, over and over, until the resources run dry, and we have no environment to sustain basic life, let alone a house in the hamptons. I have both a soft spot, AND a genral disdain for political science. Becuase i think there is an inherant intangible factor that is somewhat the same in contemporary economics. Its often not based in REALITY!! There seems to be a trend of political scientists in this country, to get that book deal, do a few tours, and educate from the sidelines!? There needs to be a true grassroots connection between the academics, and the rankinfile. I think there is a great talent in our young political scientists today, and other social academics, but what are they being molded to do? What are you molded to do? What do you WANT to do? When i was taking criminal law, and philosophy at SFU, i was a punk kid, who learned that it was about my grades, reading through a few criminal law journals, and getting to graduation. There was never any talk of revolutionary work. It was all about get in, get out, get the chedda, peace out! We got some brains in the lower mainland schools these days, i enounter them everyday, and im blown away. Partially because of personal regrets of my own, and mainly because there is such idealism, and intelligence, temprered with such reactionary attitudes (such as we are an american colony) and such disallusionment, to the true dire consequences of our politics. man, i needed to get that out! Try to get down to the rally at the VAG this saturday cyph, i would love to meet you in person, and theres tons of material i can pass your way. nonetheless, take care, ill be sure to check out your site from time to time, and ill even be polite! :)
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Jan 26, 06
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Things seem to be working well for you, and the other 6.1 million? Really? Okay.
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Jan 26, 06
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i understand your part of a activist group or something....well then get out there and activate something instead of wasting the majority of your day,and your energy, ranting and going on and on and on on FNK. so one-dimensional and uncreative...you read like a robot. im finished with you. Last edited by Revolver; Jan 26, 06 at 06:04 AM.
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Jan 26, 06
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Have fun with those assumptions about how i spend my days.
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Jan 26, 06
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Jan 26, 06
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Where all think alike, no one thinks very much.:066:Walter Lippmann
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Jan 26, 06
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He gave you a vaild and well thought out post. It has a lot of good points too.... a lot of ones that you could most likely take to heart! If your only response to this can be sarcasm my guess is that he pretty much just OWNED you and you've got NOTHIN'! :) PS - Even if I disagree with you 99.9% of the time I still expect more out of you than some sort of fart joke!
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Jan 26, 06
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fuuuuccckkk yyyooouu! cmon man, werent you the one, who was just trying to inject some stupid humour in this thread? It was all that i can do, lest i tear his fucking head off. Good advice? Why? Because he admits hes a selfish, self centered fuck, who believes his hype far too much? If the post was dripping with any more condesending double talk, id be drowing in it. His advice, is the same advice people directly before him gave, and that i accepted, and stated id work on. You think im going to advice from some uncle tom sellout, selfish, who accepts that there is massive opression in the world, and sides with it nonetheless, because of his own apparent needs? Quote:
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Every country was born out of blood, death, and corruption, but there were certain steps that needed to happen. US civil war? Fuck, this is the bullshit opinions that keep sovereign people down. Its fucking slavery. How do we know how a society will function, if they have never been able to figure it out? Are you going to tell me that tribalistic battles that happended in the beggining of time, is the basis, for the massive oppression that goes on in Africa and middle east? How does a nation escape massive racism, to a much needed occupation for the sole purpose of keeping them from killing eachother off? Quote:
In the end, advice, is adivice, but if you think im going to accept it all happy, and glad, from someone so inherently selfish and shallow, then we disagree. Stop playing yoda of fnk, and pick a stance. What we dont need in this world is more referees, or critics from the bench. You want to lighten up the situation, cool, you want to make funnies, great, you want to completely NOT participate in the thread, your perogotive, but if you aint, then stop bringing your brand of superficial judgmental summaries, of every single thing i say. I dont understand why people think that debate and political sensitive dialogue needs to be safe, nice, and comfortable, Were talking about powerful, violence laden, actions on the planet. Im not intending to beat anyone up, but this shit needs to get out, and get discussed. Plain and simple. And for the sake of legitimizing, the comments on my karma board, and the numerous private messages i get, say people are listening, asking questions, researching, and doing there thing. Granted, its a rare occasion when someone agrees with my delivery, but the content is there, the intention is there, the research is there. At this moment, its all i got.
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Jan 26, 06
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Ill remember this comment alex. And sooner or later im going to use this one of my editorials, i'll be sure to send you a copy. Just tell me where. Some one please, please explain to me how this comment is not racist, infinetly ignorant, self serrving and inhumane? Your the simpley one of the most racist, small minded, selfish assholes i have ever heard - your officially being put on ignore. If you approach me at one of my rallies or events, ill be civil for the sake of not wanting violence, BUT do not utter this bullshit anywhere near me. done. Last edited by fable; Jan 26, 06 at 01:04 PM.
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Jan 26, 06
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To make a long story short...
Canadians are (the vast majority anyway) happy to be Canadians. We're proud of the way we live and think that we are making a positive impact in the World. We have our flaws but for the most part are aware of them and try to correct them. We have better social programs than most places in the World that allow people to climb out of poverty. We are trying to make right for what we have to done to the native people of Canada. There is no revolution coming so you can choose to be part of the system and try to improve it or be part of a minor and insignificant fringe that wants to overthrow the government. As for "conservative" governments being fiscally responsible WTF. Can someone show me an example of this anywhere??? The Mulroney Torrie's ran massive deficits, as did the BC Liberals, the US Republicans and the list goes on. It's a very simple program, you cut taxes, run a major deficit and then cry that social spending needs to be cut. Then crime increases and you build prisons to deal with it.
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