Avril Lavigne getting sued for ripping off all of her music

[KrisisID]

i beleive there are more tracks that she ripped off, kinda, but avril's version is much better.

[kir mokum]

excuse me?

[KrisisID]

lol..

[NinjaBoy]

without discussion, there is no growth.

And here is the problem. Music isn't about disscussion, it's a good idea, a feeling, something that makes you tap your foot, or relates to your experience.

Too many people talking about whats wrong, not enough people actually willing to try something new.


This is the final thing I'm going to say.

I heard a great song yesterday. It was a simple beat, an acustic guitar and vocalist. The guitar player wasn't great, quite simple playing (I guess you could say derivative, because when you aren't an advanced player it is difficult)

I tapped my foot, I related to the lyrics, and had a big smile on my face.

Try it sometime, and I think you'll realize why people make music in the first place.


PS- I had a big post adressing each of your points, but what's the point. I enjoy music in my way and you in your own. But I wanted to say, if your going to come after my spelling and grammer, please make sure you capitlize "I" and the first word after a period, otherwise you look silly.

[Mangle]

.

Originally Posted by Cdn_Brdr

Isn't the whole 'I hate on mainstream music' thing dead yet?

What the hell are you talking about? Apparently it's not, because you brought it up. The Rubinoos and Rolling Stones are just mainstream as Avril, you know. Mainstream or indie has nothing to do with stealing intellectual property.

Originally Posted by Cdn_Brdr

Christ no one hated on The Verve this much when it was found that they sampled without permission (ie: stole) The Rolling Stones 'The Last Time' in their song 'Bittersweet Symphony' and they were actually guilty!

They used a sample. They didn't rerecord the chorus and say they wrote it. There's a difference. And yes, many people did and still do hate on The Verve, though not entirely for that reason. They actually had talent.

Originally Posted by Cdn_Brdr

can't you just enjoy something, though, inane, derivative, and without much meaning just because it's catchy or fun to dance to?

Yes, but that's not really what the mainstream is selling. It's a whole lifestyle, or have you really not noticed the Mandy Moore movies, Jennifer Lopez perfume, and G-Unit clothing? People don't just listen to pop just because it's fun and helps them forget the shallow, vain lives they've chosen. They listen to it because they know other people are watching them, and they can't be seen/heard listening to anything that conflicts with their choice of fashion. Music is just an accessory to them that reenforces the choices they've made, and Much Music is merely its pusher. It's really quite a sad situation. But, hey, who doesn't like ABBA or AC/DC? And you really can't get any more mainstream than The Beatles. However, there is a difference between The Beatles and The Monkees that needs to be continually pointed out, needs to be, for the sake of true artistic expression.

Originally Posted by NinjaBoy

Because your listening to music for the enjoyment of the song, not how cool it will look listed under your favorite bands on facebook.

No, you're not. If that were true, the New Kids On The Block and MC Hammer would still be popular today. Face the facts, dude. People are sheep and Avril Lavigne is merely a trend manifested. Did you know she got signed on the back of her Shania Twain covers? That's all she did. She had no original songs and had never played anything before. All she had was a look and a piercing voice, and the label came up with the rest. Yes, I've done research on this subject. I feel it's very important to actually think about what you're doing and what effect it has on everyone else. Every dollar you spent can make a difference. That's the basis behind vegetarianism.

Originally Posted by NinjaBoy

You list some of the modren artists you listen to now. Chances are they are pulling from previous influences and artists. The fans of those orginal artists might not care for it using the same arguement that you have, because they remeber when the music meant more to them.

No, there's a difference between being influenced by something and ripping it off. I can't just jot down the lyrics to "Stairway To Heaven" and tell everyone I wrote it. I didn't. That's called stealing, and Avril('s songwriter) got caught.

Originally Posted by NinjaBoy

Listen to the damn music, and shut up.

"There's shit in the meat."
"Just cook the meat."

Just do what they want you to do and be a good consumer who doesn't talk about anything except buying things and getting drunk. Nice one.

Originally Posted by NinjaBoy

And here is the problem. Music isn't about disscussion, it's a good idea, a feeling, something that makes you tap your foot, or relates to your experience.

Music isn't about discussion? How old are you? You seriously think John Lennon's "Imagine" is just supposed to make you tap your foot? It was a paraphrase of the communist manifesto, for f*ck all! It was designed specifically to get people thinking and talking. That's what great music does. Sure, it's about having a good time, but it's about keeping good times possible too. And you do that by making people think about what they can do to make good times happen, not just experience them passively on their way to work at Starbucks. Grow up, boy. Music is a bigger, more influential force than Gameboy or Pokemon.

Originally Posted by kir mokum

they usually start off with someone who is intelligent, articulate, and innovative who has something interesting if not painfully truthful to say or do and then the masses get a hold of it and it turns into a retard-fest. look at the environmental movement, animal rights, house music, punk rock, metal, "i hate trance music", "fuck hipsters", etc, etc.

Look what they did with Christianity. Christ was a cool dude who wanted people to be good to each other, but you only ever see him nailed to two pieces of wood, bleeding like a stuck pig these days. We are a sick, sick race.

[kir mokum]

ninjaboy, i don't think you couldn't be any more of an illiterate, ignorant tool. please stop listening to music right now. you're not even worthy of manufactured pop music.

Looking at the big picture... artist are often influenced and learn from others. Not to forget that with so many years of music and so many songs made... the opportunity to create a new song or art only grows smaller. Trying to create something new only gets harder. This doesn't mean that its ok to copy or "steal" someone else's song, but lets pick on something more obvious. The songs are pretty simular with the "hey hey, you you" part... but seriously they are such simple words and so happen to be put together but the rest of the songs are much different and 30 years apart.
As Avril said in miksa's post there are several other songs with very simular lyrics and song motives. So should artist start going after each other for using the lyrics "i love you" or having a song tittled "love"?

is this for real?


shame...

[kir mokum]

Originally Posted by R Wellbelove

Not to forget that with so many years of music and so many songs made... the opportunity to create a new song or art only grows smaller. Trying to create something new only gets harder.

12 semitones in an octave x 7 octaves (for easy math) to the power of 4 (4 quarter notes in a bar for ease of math) = 49 787 136 quarter note combinations per bar. yes that number would be diminished because of music theory and aesthetics but there's also atonal music to consider, as well as the many different scales (even microtonal scales) and the different note values and note value combinations that can all be taken into consideration when calculating the total number of possibilities per bar.

what's my point? the "it's all been done" argument is kind of weak or at least holds a lot less water then what it first appears to.

[Mangle]

Originally Posted by R Wellbelove

Looking at the big picture... artist are often influenced and learn from others. Not to forget that with so many years of music and so many songs made... the opportunity to create a new song or art only grows smaller. Trying to create something new only gets harder.

Only to the people who aren't truly creative. No one is telling Avril she has to write derivative pop tunes about how much better she is than your girlfriend. If she was actually speaking from the heart, it would be original. The Brian Jonestown Massacre is a shining example of this. Every track Anton Newcombe writes sound so much like you've heard it a hundred times before, but it's all just so uniquely BJM (plus, he put a Rolling Stone in his band name, just to let you know where he's coming from). However, Avril is merely a product of studio manipulation, and only sings what she's told to sing. She has absolutely no knowledge of the history of music pre-1990, and is therefor more susceptible to stealing something she doesn't remember hearing on the radio. If she actually had heard of The Rubinoos, she'd be able to make a case about influence versus stealing. In that case, however, she's sticking to her "I haven't heard of them, so I can't get sued... I just cook the meat and eat it" bullsh!t, so she deserves to go down. The Peaches one is definitely weaker. I just threw it up 'cause I saw it, and there appears to be a pattern forming.

http://www3.telus.net/jefmil/2005/02...%20Someday.mp3
We also live on a planet where John Fogerty got sued for having "Old Man Down The Road" sound too much like a Creedence Clearwater Revival track, when he was CCR. Neil Young once got sued by his label for releasing an "uncommercial" album. Yet, these days, utterly sterile bands like Avril and her buddies Nickelback roam the charts. What ever happened to artistic integrity? Where have bands like The Beatles, Rolling Stones, Cream, and Pink Floyd gone to and will they ever come back? When again will something become popular because it's actually good, not just because it was marketed properly? Things need to change.

[NinjaBoy]

There was a big post here, arguing points. But I decied that it would probably discredit my point.

So I'm going to shut up, and enjoy some good tunes.

[NinjaBoy]

I think it should also be noted in this thread in case people don't realise this. Avril does not write her own music. She's just a puppet.

[dabbler]

well she claims to be a part of writing her own music. (with a team of professionals as well) but then again she can't pronounce David Bowie's name so...

[kir mokum]

who's david bowie? doesn't he go by "marilyn manson" now?

[NinjaBoy]

Originally Posted by dabbler

well she claims to be a part of writing her own music. (with a team of professionals as well) but then again she can't pronounce David Bowie's name so...

And Paris Hilton claimed recently she's never done drugs.

I believe Avril's writing means she might change one word somewhere on the cd.

[dj_soo]

pop quiz: when was the last time top40/mainstream music was actually creative and pushing boundaries?

I say the 90s when grunge was just getting big (it's passe now, but that shit was pretty innovative for it's time - even if the majority of the songs were only 3 chords), Beck, Portishead, Fugees, Lauryn Hill (among others - don't get me started on the Golden Era of hiphop) were all popular among the mainstream.

Sure, the top charts were still dominated by mindless crap, but at least even the mindless crap of that era was being made people with a modicum of talent (Whitney, Boyz ii men, etc.) as opposed to the proliferation of manufactured pop putting the emphasis on image more than the music...

[crookedking]

i get that song stuck in my head all the Time.

and i don't even really listen to music.

Originally Posted by kir mokum

what's my point? the "it's all been done" argument is kind of weak or at least holds a lot less water then what it first appears to.

My argument isnt "its all been done before" My argument was more of the fact that the english language only allows us to express our selfs with a sequence of words in so many ways. Im not saying that artist can use this as an excuse to not be creative, but there is going to be a point when songs and lyrics are going to start sounding the same and a point where artists are going to start getting frustrated because they can find a way to express them selfs with out sounding like an other. Example there are only so many ways we cant say hello to each other in the english language.

Originally Posted by Mangle

Only to the people who aren't truly creative. No one is telling Avril she has to write derivative pop tunes about how much better she is than your girlfriend. If she was actually speaking from the heart, it would be original. The Brian Jonestown Massacre is a shining example of this. Every track Anton Newcombe writes sound so much like you've heard it a hundred times before, but it's all just so uniquely BJM (plus, he put a Rolling Stone in his band name, just to let you know where he's coming from). However, Avril is merely a product of studio manipulation, and only sings what she's told to sing. She has absolutely no knowledge of the history of music pre-1990, and is therefor more susceptible to stealing something she doesn't remember hearing on the radio. If she actually had heard of The Rubinoos, she'd be able to make a case about influence versus stealing. In that case, however, she's sticking to her "I haven't heard of them, so I can't get sued... I just cook the meat and eat it" bullsh!t, so she deserves to go down. The Peaches one is definitely weaker. I just threw it up 'cause I saw it, and there appears to be a pattern forming.

http://www3.telus.net/jefmil/2005/02...%20Someday.mp3
We also live on a planet where John Fogerty got sued for having "Old Man Down The Road" sound too much like a Creedence Clearwater Revival track, when he was CCR. Neil Young once got sued by his label for releasing an "uncommercial" album. Yet, these days, utterly sterile bands like Avril and her buddies Nickelback roam the charts. What ever happened to artistic integrity? Where have bands like The Beatles, Rolling Stones, Cream, and Pink Floyd gone to and will they ever come back? When again will something become popular because it's actually good, not just because it was marketed properly? Things need to change.

I think we're getting this argument a little mixed up. Some of you are enjoying the chance to prove that Avril is a lame puppet who cant write and steels other ppls music. IMO I think the song is as pathetic and simple as the one writen in the 70's. The only reason Avril's version made it so big is because shes cute, girly, has a dance sequence in her video, and the song is directed to a young naive audience who only knows how to find music on the main stream radio.

Legally, I think people are being a bit anal about a small line. To be honest I would believe her if she never heard the song before as she wasn't alive when the song came out. Although her big boss ppl should have looked into it. I dont know how strict the copy right laws are, but some of you have no idea how much music you listen too has been re-used, re-edited, and re-mixed. So please stop pointing the figure at Avril, because A LOT of other artists are just as guilty.

As for chart hitters... there is a marketing formula. I wouldn't believe any charts or awards given to artist. Infact "charts" and "awards" are primarily used as a marketing tool. Record labels dont sign an artist because they're good... they sign them up because they think an artist can produce something that will sell. Why do you think its called.... THE MUSIC INDUSTRY.

[Mangle]

Originally Posted by NinjaBoy

I believe Avril's writing means she might change one word somewhere on the cd.

Like for "Complicated," the Matrix songwriting team (who would go on to co-write the last Britney Spears album) said her only contribution to her first huge single was to change "take off all your stupid clothes" to "preppy clothes." That's it.

Originally Posted by dj_soo

pop quiz: when was the last time top40/mainstream music was actually creative and pushing boundaries?

We still get the odd thing that passes through, like Gnarls Barkley, Amy Winehouse, or The White Stripes, but it's almost like the token creative act on the charts these days. When Kidz Bop 10 is a gold record and David Bowie never won a grammy, something is f*cked.

Originally Posted by R Wellbelove

Legally, I think people are being a bit anal about a small line. To be honest I would believe her if she never heard the song before as she wasn't alive when the song came out.

Ah, but she was, to quote popmatters: “She probably DID hear the tune, but not by The Rubinoos. The song was covered by the teen band The Party on their 1990 debut LP. This band was a studio creation comprised of members of the New Mickey Mouse Club. My guess is that Lavigne—who was a pre-teen star wanna be—probably heard this album at some point. The Party was sort of a proto-Britney/Christina/Justin effort by record execs. Many kids back then had this LP.”

Originally Posted by R Wellbelove

My argument isnt "its all been done before" My argument was more of the fact that the english language only allows us to express our selfs with a sequence of words in so many ways.

And yet, people still find a way to write amazingly fresh and original books without copying eachother word for word, even though we only have a 26 letter alphabet and hundreds of years worth of material to draw on, while pop music is really only an invention of the last 40. I'm not sure if the theory "put 100 monkeys at typewriters for 100 years and you'll get Shakespeare" has been proven. Words take on different meaning over time as the world changes around it. Art reflects this change, and the best art tries to push it in a positive direction. Someone's not trying, that's all I'm saying. If you want to be original, you will be original. If you just want to make money selling derivative pop garbage, than that's what you are.

[Wood]

^yeah but at the same time, if you wanna compare books with music, you have to know that the popular books, the ones that move the most units, are in general just as trite & derivative as popular music. I think there's a very subtle art to manipulating popular culture, to make a pop hit you need to find a good balance of recognizable elements from the past & things that are relevant in the present. You wanna fool people into thinking they're hearing something new & edgy while in fact they're being drawn in by slightly altered hooks & lyrics that are embedded in their subconcious, probably since childhood. I can appreciate the skill it takes to find that balance, even if the resulting music usually makes me wretch.

Now, i'm not saying that Avril posesses such a skill. That would be the work of her producers & songwriters (yeah i know she's supposed to write her own songs). I think she's awful & i find everything about her quite tasteless.... but at the same time it gives me no pleasure to hear of these accusations being leveled against her. Borrowing, copying & downright stealing go on in all forms of music, and in fact all forms of art, in general. Any victory for phony, money-grabbing suits like these is a defeat for any artist who dwells in the grey areas of copyright law. And that's a lot of the most important artists out there today. I hope these opportunistic vultures get their case kicked out of court.

[Mangle]

Originally Posted by Wood

Any victory for phony, money-grabbing suits like these is a defeat for any artist who dwells in the grey areas of copyright law.

I think you could say that for both sides of this case. Hell, they probably have the same suits.
Avril is not an artist. She's a studio creation, and it's about time she was exposed as such on a world watching platform. This'll prolly get settled out of court, due to the fact Avril has more money and that's the way the legal system works these days, but I hope this is merely the first of many plagiarism cases leveled against her. However, it appears the people she rips off are just as banal as she is, so I have no idea who that would be. She just needs to get off the charts permanently.

[Rayeine]

A friend also brought me to the attention that this Rhianna girl...
the Whole Tainted love...and then the Cranberries - Zombie to her Umbrella song?..

i just..

music's revolutionary time...
Patti Smith...Jim Morrison..poets..prophets....innovation. .
Jimi Hendrix.
Raw.
....



Im so sick of sheep.

[Mangle]

Originally Posted by Rayeine

Im so sick of sheep.

Me too. They're there to put the people to sleep and make them forget the lives they've chosen. Soma comes in all forms.
When was the last time you tried to explain electronic music to a pop junkie? There's an exercise for you.

[kir mokum]

Originally Posted by Rayeine

music's revolutionary time...
Patti Smith...Jim Morrison..poets..prophets....innovation. .
Jimi Hendrix.
Raw.
Im so sick of sheep.

that's funny.

[Billy Shears]

Originally Posted by R Wellbelove

My argument isnt "its all been done before" My argument was more of the fact that the english language only allows us to express our selfs with a sequence of words in so many ways. Im not saying that artist can use this as an excuse to not be creative, but there is going to be a point when songs and lyrics are going to start sounding the same and a point where artists are going to start getting frustrated because they can find a way to express them selfs with out sounding like an other. Example there are only so many ways we cant say hello to each other in the english language.

That's true to an extent, but I'd say it's not really valid in this case, or else you'd hear about this kind of thing ALL THE TIME, which you don't.

Originally Posted by R Wellbelove

I think we're getting this argument a little mixed up. Some of you are enjoying the chance to prove that Avril is a lame puppet who cant write and steels other ppls music. IMO I think the song is as pathetic and simple as the one writen in the 70's. The only reason Avril's version made it so big is because shes cute, girly, has a dance sequence in her video, and the song is directed to a young naive audience who only knows how to find music on the main stream radio.

The original song was named record of the year by Britain's Music Week Magazine... I'm sure Avrils looks/image are the only reason hers got big... right... I've heard the song a bunch of times, and the only memorable part of it is the hook, which is jacked.