Kid arrested for bringing glass of water to Schiavo

[impure]

so if she's communicating like that then she's not in a vegetative state imo.
she's severly mentaly handicapped, but not vegetative.
how many people are in that state?
ALOT.
should we allow all of them to die?
if she responds to painful stimuli then she would be in pain from starvation.
simple facts, that people choose to ignore.

diva, if her brain were liquified then she would be dead.
the brain is incharge of more than just personality, maybe you don't know this but things such as breathing and blinking are controlled by the brain. they're called involuntary responses. you don't think about it but it happens and it happens for a reason.

[diva]

Originally Posted by impure

so if she's communicating like that then she's not in a vegetative state imo.
she's severly mentaly handicapped, but not vegetative.
how many people are in that state?
ALOT.
should we allow all of them to die?
if she responds to painful stimuli then she would be in pain from starvation.
simple facts, that people choose to ignore.

diva, if her brain were liquified then she would be dead.
the brain is incharge of more than just personality, maybe you don't know this but things such as breathing and blinking are controlled by the brain. they're called involuntary responses. you don't think about it but it happens and it happens for a reason.

I hate to break it to you, but your honest opinion doesn't matter. Neurologists who have undergone 14 years of complex training determined that she was in this state. It's not up for you to interpret.

Parts of her brain have been liquified. Not the primitive parts of the brain that allow it to sustain our basic functions like breathing, but on the whole, most of this woman's brain is fucked. It was fucked when it didn't receive much needed oxygen for about 6 minutes 15 years ago.

LOL
Don't give me an anatomy and physiology lecture. I'd school you in the subject area any day.

[FireWire]

OK, I am probably going to sound so ignorant here, but who the fuck is Terri Schiavo and why is she so significant? Sorry for this question...

[impure]

Originally Posted by diva

I hate to break it to you, but your honest opinion doesn't matter. Neurologists who have undergone 14 years of complex training determined that she was in this state. It's not up for you to interpret.

Parts of her brain have been liquified. Not the primitive parts of the brain that allow it to sustain our basic functions like breathing, but on the whole, most of this woman's brain is fucked. It was fucked when it didn't receive much needed oxygen for about 6 minutes 15 years ago.

LOL
Don't give me an anatomy and physiology lecture. I'd school you in the subject area any day.

every one has an opinion, yours don't mean shit all either, so stop acting like it does.

as for anatomy and psysiology, let's just not go there.
i'm dating a med student, i learned a lot.

[automatic]

^^^^

just because she laughs, cries, farts, giggles, mumbles, bleats etc.....doesn't mean she's not a vegetable. the defining test is whether or not these actions seem voluntary. she's been evaluated by some very reputable doctors and they all come to the same conclusion. she doesn't respond to stimuli, or if she does it's not different than how she responds to non-stimuli. if you've got someone who's making random noises all day long, and you ask her "terri do you want to die" and she makes a noise and you rush off and say "she responded, she doesn't want to die"....well then.

of course maybe she does respond to stimuli, but that'd mean that all of the doctors who have evaluated her have misdiagnosed her. or they're all part of some right-wing conspiracy.

as for "if her brain was liquified, she'd be dead".....first as a background i'll say that i happen to know a great deal about the human brain, i even have a parts of the brain coloring book:) here's a picture of a brain.


the thalamus in the picture isn't part of the brain per se, it's really only a gland that controls your endocrine (hormone) system, it just happens to be in the best pic i found, so ignore it for today.

the brain can roughly be divided into three parts.

the cerebral cortex is responsible for all higher function. consciousness, memory, sense, emotion, intention, voluntary movement, speech, etc....this is the part of you that makes you "you". when you dream, this bit is going like wildfire. this is the part that essentially got put through a blender on terry.

the cerebellum (next one down) is largely responsible for coordinating movement. when you go to type, you don't have to consciously think about how each finger moves, the cerebellum is figuring that shit out for you at a pre-conscious level. it also stores some of our more primitive emotional patterns, the flee-fuck-eat-kill type shit that in an emerging mammal is so useful to have right to the motor center. i don't know enough about the physical aspect of terri's brain injury to say this definitively, but chances are this was damaged to a certain degree as well. they're both contained within the skull.

the final part of the brain is the brain stem. this takes care of almost all of your involuntary body processes. essentially, if you fuck with this you stop breathing and your heart stops and you die. on her it's still working.

[automatic]

Originally Posted by impure

as for anatomy and psysiology, let's just not go there.
i'm dating a med student, i learned a lot.

sorry, just went there......should be easy for everyone to understand too...

[impure]

'tis easy to understand.
the comment wasn't directed at you, but thanks for the play by play of the human brain.

i read that she DID respond to stimuli, which means she isn't brain dead, but if you know otherwise then i stand corrected.

[diva]

Originally Posted by impure

every one has an opinion, yours don't mean shit all either, so stop acting like it does.

as for anatomy and psysiology, let's just not go there.
i'm dating a med student, i learned a lot.

Can you not comprehend anything i've written? I didn't say that my opinion meant anything. In fact, I think i've been pretty objective in my replies to this thread.

I just said that NO ONE OPINION SHOULD MATTER ON THIS SUBJECT BECAUSE IT'S NO ONE BUSINESS BUT HER HUSBANDS. WE HAVE GUARDIANSHIP LAWS FOR THIS REASON. SO THAT THE PERSON WHO IS THE CLOSEST TO US WHEN WE BECOME INCAPACITATED CAN MAKE THOSE DECISIONS FOR YOU.

I will go there. It's really wonderful that your bf is a medical student, but you are not. I've been studying the human body for school for almost four years now. Stick to what you know best. Horses.

[MissBehavior]

^^Honestly, I wouldn't trust any of those links that Wum posted. They're all from religious-based, right-wing websites that are obviously going to be on the side of keeping her alive. I'm with Jay and Esi on the fact that any sound was probably involuntary and that it was just interpreted to be a "response" to questioning.

EDIT: For Impure.

[diva]

Originally Posted by automatic

^^^^

just because she laughs, cries, farts, giggles, mumbles, bleats etc.....doesn't mean she's not a vegetable. the defining test is whether or not these actions seem voluntary. she's been evaluated by some very reputable doctors and they all come to the same conclusion. she doesn't respond to stimuli, or if she does it's not different than how she responds to non-stimuli. if you've got someone who's making random noises all day long, and you ask her "terri do you want to die" and she makes a noise and you rush off and say "she responded, she doesn't want to die"....well then.

Exactly.

She does not respond to pain or other stimuli. This has been a fact determined by EXPERTS who know more than any us.
And those same terrible sounds that people are calling laughter, one could also interpret them as mindless, primal, guttural moans.

If this woman's husband is not lying, and she did in fact want to die 8 years ago, I hope she's able to forgive every single person who prevented her wishes from being carried out.

[impure]

Originally Posted by diva

Can you not comprehend anything i've written? I didn't say that my opinion meant anything. In fact, I think i've been pretty objective in my replies to this thread.

I just said that NO ONE OPINION SHOULD MATTER ON THIS SUBJECT BECAUSE IT'S NO ONE BUSINESS BUT HER HUSBANDS. WE HAVE GUARDIANSHIP LAWS FOR THIS REASON. SO THAT THE PERSON WHO IS THE CLOSEST TO US WHEN WE BECOME INCAPACITATED CAN MAKE THOSE DECISIONS FOR YOU.

I will go there. It's really wonderful that your bf is a medical student, but you are not. I've been studying the human body for school for almost four years now. Stick to what you know best. Horses.

dosn't mean we can't state our opinion.
wum may have right wing ideas, but that's your opinion and you shouldn't go trashing him for it.
just like i shouldn't go trashing you for yours.
play fair.

[impure]

Originally Posted by MissBehavior

^^Honestly, I wouldn't trust any of those links that Wum posted. They're all from religious-based, right-wing websites that are obviously going to be on the side of keeping her alive. I'm with Jay and Esi on the fact that any sound was probably involuntary and that it was just interpreted to be a "response" to questioning.

EDIT: For Impure.

ok, good to know, thanks..
can anyone provide some UNBIASED facts about this case?

[automatic]

actually, i've been thinking about the whole "does she respond to stimuli" question........just as an example, you don't necessarily need to have ANY brain to respond to stimuli. i believe there's a fast pain-nerve motor loop (nerve->muscle=reflex action) that responds BEFORE stimuli reaches your brain....normally it'd be (nerve->brain->muscle=action).

think about when a doctor hits your knee with the little rubber hammer if you don't know what i'm thinking about.

[impure]

Originally Posted by diva

Exactly.

She does not respond to pain or other stimuli. This has been a fact determined by EXPERTS who know more than any us.
And those same terrible sounds that people are calling laughter, one could also interpret them as mindless, primal, guttural moans.

If this woman's husband is not lying, and she did in fact want to die 8 years ago, I hope she's able to forgive every single person who prevented her wishes from being carried out.

you keep saying the experts know more than us, yet you keep preaching like you're some expert.

[impure]

Originally Posted by automatic

actually, i've been thinking about the whole "does she respond to stimuli" question........just as an example, you don't necessarily need to have ANY brain to respond to stimuli. i believe there's a fast pain-nerve motor loop (nerve->muscle=reflex action) that responds BEFORE stimuli reaches your brain....normally it'd be (nerve->brain->muscle=action).

think about when a doctor hits your knee with the little rubber hammer if you don't know what i'm thinking about.

good point, i guess we can't really know for certain because we only know what we're being told about his case.
and they could be skewing the facts royaly.

i think this is being argued more as an ethics case.

[impure]

Originally Posted by diva

Can you not comprehend anything i've written? I didn't say that my opinion meant anything. In fact, I think i've been pretty objective in my replies to this thread.

I just said that NO ONE OPINION SHOULD MATTER ON THIS SUBJECT BECAUSE IT'S NO ONE BUSINESS BUT HER HUSBANDS. WE HAVE GUARDIANSHIP LAWS FOR THIS REASON. SO THAT THE PERSON WHO IS THE CLOSEST TO US WHEN WE BECOME INCAPACITATED CAN MAKE THOSE DECISIONS FOR YOU.

I will go there. It's really wonderful that your bf is a medical student, but you are not. I've been studying the human body for school for almost four years now. Stick to what you know best. Horses.

no sorry, i don't comprehend english.
calm the fuck down.
you act like she's your mom.

we probably don't even have all the facts anyway.
and anything we say is purely speculation.
you don't seem to be able to have a conversation without getting all emotional.

[diva]

Originally Posted by impure

dosn't mean we can't state our opinion.
wum may have right wing ideas, but that's your opinion and you shouldn't go trashing him for it.
just like i shouldn't go trashing you for yours.
play fair.

Opinions have to be based on fact.
Do you understand that?

Fact: The sky is blue; therefore, If i had an opinion that it was green, it would be baseless!

You can't debate with people if they're not presenting cohesive arguments.

Passion is ruling reason in this thread.

[automatic]

Originally Posted by impure

i think this is being argued more as an ethics case.

actually, while that's definitely true, what this really is a legal case that will go along way to defining just how much influence the courts are allowed to have over women's bodies...

[diva]

Originally Posted by impure

ok, good to know, thanks..
can anyone provide some UNBIASED facts about this case?

yeah, you can just hit up our good friend GOOGLE.
you can actually find court documents, medical facts, and information from both the parents' and husband's side of the case

Google is your friend

[impure]

Originally Posted by diva

Opinions have to be based on fact.
Do you understand that?

Fact: The sky is blue; therefore, If i had an opinion that it was green, it would be baseless!

You can't debate with people if they're not presenting cohesive arguments.

Passion is ruling reason in this thread.

for you maybe, i'm just saying what i think from what i've read.

who determines fact from fiction in a case such as this?

you form your opinion on what you are told is fact.
if you are misinformed, then are you at fault for forming an opinion on facts that are untrue?

[automatic]

in fact here's an interesting thought.....

let's say that a woman got pregnant, was early in her pregnancy, found out and told her husband she wanted to get an abortion.

she's on the way to the doctor's office when a construction worker drops a hammer on her head, putting her into a permanent vegetative state, no hope of recovery, no response to stimuli, etc....

her husband still wants to honour her wishes regarding the abortion.

terri's case will go a long way towards allowing the state to say "no abortion allowed in this case".

this case is really, REALLY about the state interfering with a woman's body.
true, terri can't speak for herself, but legally, her husband is essentially "her" if he has her legal guardianship.

[diva]

Originally Posted by impure

for you maybe, i'm just saying what i think from what i've read.

who determines fact from fiction in a case such as this?

you form your opinion on what you are told is fact.
if you are misinformed, then are you at fault for forming an opinion on facts that are untrue?

it should be the responsibility of the person making the argument to research and obtain primary sources

people like wum have a tendency to use any source that will help support their opinion, even if the source is biased and irreputable

[impure]

what's to say his facts are untrue?
(they are probably biased, yes, i know)
but who are YOU to determine that?
you are not directly connected to this case, you are not one of the experts working on terri, so who are YOU to judge what other people say is fact?

[diva]

Originally Posted by impure

what's to say his facts are untrue?
(they are probably biased, yes, i know)
but who are YOU to determine that?
you are not directly connected to this case, you are not one of the experts working on terri, so who are YOU to judge what other people say is fact?

did you read what wum wrote?
if you didn't, go read it.
after you're done that, google and find information on the case.
avoid blogs and other such opinion based sources for your information.
try to visit new sites that quote the people involved in this case.
go do that, then come back and post in this thread.

[impure]

Originally Posted by diva

did you read what wum wrote?
if you didn't, go read it.
after you're done that, google and find information on the case.
avoid blogs and other such opinion based sources for your information.
try to visit new sites that quote the people involved in this case.
go do that, then come back and post in this thread.

no.
make me.

i wanna be like lou belle, close minded and dumb.
the world is a scary place, i choose to close my eyes to it and think only what i want to think.