Apr 20, 06
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However, I can't resist making the point that our situations differ slightly in that you didn't stand to make money if the party succeeded (IE: you weren't a 'partner' in the production). Glad that you and Dabbler got something out of this at least :P (speaking of which, Dabbler brings up a good point, and it pretty much applies to almost any business) 
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Apr 20, 06
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Wow, this is pretty intense. Admittedly my interest in this thread grew as soon as someone compared what is happening in the graphic design world to what is happening in the dj world and has been happening for sometime.
I wanted to go off on a capitalism tirade, and remind everyone that everything you make above and beyond food, shelter, health, and a few creature comforts is your acceptance of said society, and an acceptance of some objective conditions. I said some! I design, and i also do a lot of probono work too. If some designer came up to me, and said that my probono work, or work that was done at reduced billing (becuase of the nature of the client) then i would probably tell them to get a grip and go fuck themselves. Designers/dj for the most part work their asses off, are normal people just trying to survive and have a few beers along the way, and stay sane. Keeping this in mind, if someones work practice stepped onto my ability to survive(not my ability to get loaded, or buy some sweet kicks, or a benz or supply a 15oo week cocaine habit) then i would be concerned, and perhaps pissed off. BUT! is this the case?? Trully - is it?? Or for most part, do the arguments come from people who are just angry that they are not MORE well off, or MORE rich, or have MORE notierity? On the flip side, are the people who may be undercutting hardworking dj's or designers, or any work for that matter, GETTING RICH OFF IT? Or are they just trying to survive and get some experience?? Dont get me wrong, people fronting thier skills as more that they actaully are, do in fact hurt us, but in the end, the real solution lay in improving ourselves and our craft. Better promotion, more practice, better business sense, and better communication. Perhaps the hyper attention put on celebrity status and those who aquire it by doing nothing, except have the last name, Hilton, has skewed our perception? This isnt to say that our respective skills or talents are bullshit, but if you support a capitalist system and it puts more than food on your table, then really you are far luckier than most of the population, a population that in some way or form are in such a state becuase OF capitalism? Im not sure who started this thread, but whoever it was talked about things like "we are providing a servive" and "we should start a union" Both these comments are insulting to the millions of others in the service industry and currently in Unions! Providing a service!!!! HAHAHAHAHA, thats the most suburban, spoiled fucking comment ive ever heard!!! Is your ability to live trully being jeopordized by some djs working for free??? Have you ever thought that perhaps your own skills are in question? Or that perhaps everyone is starting to understand that a dj can be a talented amazing person, but in no way is any more deservant of extra pay than any other working stiff. Who are we fucking kidding, whos fucking lives are you saving, whos kids are you teaching, whos shit are you cleaning up!?!?! YOU ARE A DJ, I AM A DESIGNER, and that in itself means NOTHING!!! NOTHING!!! Except perhaps we are good at what we do, and we happen to make a living off something far more romantic than driving a truck, or working at a factory, or having to work in group homes, or in the mental health field, or god forbid HIGHSCHOOL!!! Okay, okay, im slipping into crazy political mode, im sorry. But seriouslly, if you are earnestly working your ass off (i know most of you are!) AND you are earnestly having you livelihood cut down becuase people are working for less, then you have my support. But we all know, what the reality is. And the reality is our teachers, our nurses, our local mental health team workers(not the shrinks!) are getting shit! How the hell can we add YOU OR I into the fold, when your(im) A FUCKING DJ!! OR EVEN A DESIGNER!!?!?! I have much respect for djs and producers, especially those who spin the techy wapred dnb that has enthralled me for over a decade, but come on!! Please get your perspective in check! As a good designer i can see upwards of 150-175$ an HOUR!!! (billing time) Even after massive tax cuts, and bites of the check from the firms partners im still clearing more than the majority of the country!!!!!! I am NOT saying you should not fight for your rights I am NOT saying that promoters/money people/employers should not be more accountable I am not denying that there are some undercutting fuckers out there, who dont know a tone arm from their own, or a vector mask from a mud mask, BUT, PUT THINGS INTO PERSPECTIVE! Understand that unions are built and fought for, so they can protect basic human rights and then some, but not so someone can live PLUSH! We need arts and culture in our lives, and because of that, people should feel like they can make a living off related jobs, but that doesnt mean arts and culture should put in you on easy street, because thats bullshit, thats arrogant, selfish, spoiled and utterly INHUMANE.
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Apr 20, 06
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Apr 20, 06
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Anyway, enough about that... Quote:
Last edited by Richard_Pyra; Apr 20, 06 at 04:19 AM.
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Apr 20, 06
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I admit i took the union thing a little personally, especially in times where unions face consistant attacks from the government and the apathetic, and the rankinfile members also have to deal with corrupt beauraracy, some local dj is going to pipe up about forming a union? James, you never pegged me as bullshitter, so if you tell me that the situation in Vancouver through the course of attacks on djs as working people by corrupt promoters, coupled with a large enough contingent of unskilled dj labour undercutting price points in terms of asking wages, then i will take you word for it, but it better be more that some glib remark about my apprerent self righteousness. Also understand that if this thread is indeed a reality enough to take any of it as more than just a few cats who got fucked over, do you think the relationships between Employers(club owner/promotors) and Employees(djs, producers, mc's, live performance artists) will ever be the fucking same? I know what the fuck goes on in the design world, and i know that there are people out there claiming they are designers and in doing so, creating an environment where they are becoming the standard rule of thumb, but then that also means we are accepting that large population is too stupid to know the difference or dont care. This then would be the same in the dj/club music world then right? Where we state that a flood of unskilled talent is coming in, being accepted by the promoters, undercutting the legitimate talent, and of course fooling the general public. A genral public in which last time i checked arent complaining about the music in most of the non top40/rnb joints? If this is true then the same unskilled un talented djs that get hired by promoters (arent you a promoter these days?) who are being complained about, are the very fucking same that are rocking crowds seven days a week? Think about the reply you are going to make, and make sure you make it specific. Because although i dont hit shows much these days, ive been around long enough to know that by making generalizations, like were made in this thread at some points, you are in fact going to call out a lot of people who you wouldnt expect. Of course this doesnt matter if the situation is actaully only isolated to a few instances, of which case, talks about creating UNIONS, and large sweeping statement a la "lgX state of union addresses" about being an "under appreciated" artists are in fact just that, a few cases and lot of bullshit. Becuase if there tons of promoters and djs alike on these websites, and the shit is so widespread, then why arent there more catfights? This isnt a hard problem to expose. How many major promoters and djs are in this city? -If you are a dj who has felt exploitated or underpaid for your services, please right down all prevalent information including your own name, alias, club venues involved, names of promoters and club owners. Together we can combat this terrible assault on the sonically talent, hardworking djs of this city!!!! Last edited by fable; Apr 20, 06 at 03:27 AM.
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Apr 20, 06
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Based on the subject that richard pyra has posted in regards to the work that he did for a promoter... the question that comes in mind is this. Who is the promoter that holds the rights to the name of the event that was being advertised based on the design that was made?
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Apr 20, 06
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From what I've seen most unions breed overpaid layzness but you know me , I'm a free market capatalist kind of guy :)
It seems to that basic working rights are the last thing modern unions are concerned about these days. Edit: I should clarify, I don't feel this about all unions. I do think that some of the unions are needed, for professions like teachers and such. Quote:
Last edited by Leviathan; Apr 20, 06 at 11:03 AM.
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Apr 20, 06
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Apr 20, 06
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ha
16 pages
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Apr 20, 06
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16 pages of pure gold...
I dont think I've ever seen a thread on fnk get this big, this fast without it being an all out flame war.
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Apr 20, 06
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really interesting forum, and a subject that's always in hot debate.
In my experience -- I've lived in Ottawa, Toronto, Montreal, Halifax/around maritimes, and now Vancouver -- every city always thinks they get paid the weakest in Canada, and that every other industry is run propa. I think that, for the most part it stems from their experience headlining in other cities, which usually (but we all know not always!!) goes more smoothly and you get more special treatment for sure! I agree -- that generally, we don't get nearly as much respect/translated into pay -- for our services in our home town, because we're so accessable, and peeps in the scene are used to us. but we should still be paid well for our services. To say what we do is useless and not deserving pay is like saying a gourmet chef should not get paid because he's not the farmer that grew the food, or because he can't lay eggs himself. It's valid to cut up and cook -- assemble a gourmet meal out of all these base ingredients, and that's what a good DJ does -- brings the world to your doorstep, and turns individual songs into a journey, an experience. Basically, I think that a verbal contract should be respected, but for clarity, a written contract is ALWAYS more professional. The only way to get respect, really, is to earn it, and demand it -- like Oprah said -- we teach people how they are allowed to treat us -- walk over us and get away with it, or get punished! Basically, if all the good DJs stopped playing for promoters that screwed them they wouldn't be able to book good DJs and would either have shitty lineups or turn their biz around. I love playing free shows, charity shows, underground little shows -- but they don't pay the bills. Subsequently, I have a day job -- but there were a couple years, before I went back to school, where DJing WAS my job, I took it really seriously and took several gigs a week -- and I did get screwed out of pay sometimes! But contracts and working with reputable people will really help you hold your ground. It's true there will always be DJs lookng for a break willing to undercut you, but the essence is you have to seperate yourself from the masses, do something different, unique, that gets attention -- realize your own worth -- and then don't undersell yourself. :) 1 love
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Apr 20, 06
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Apr 20, 06
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I may look like the bad guy here to everyone. Which I really don't mind. However as the middleman here, you're going after the wrong guy. I did my best to get your money for you, and it didn't work. He owns the rights to the party, he funded it, he took the losses or would've took the profits. So he also absorbs all outstanding debts. I was employed by him to take care of the business side things. However regardless if I work for him or Walmart, I'm just the employee so you're bothering the wrong person. You're the only one he's never paid. As I told you I disagree with him. But it's his decision and I can't force him to do so. I told you I'd try to get it off him after KISS, but once again he wasn't interested. I'm a persistant person and may have even tried to get it for you in the future. Now all your bitching and moaning makes me want you to say get it yourself. What do you expect me to do Richard? in a perfect world I'd pay his debts for you. However as I said I'm unwilling to do that.
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Apr 20, 06
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If felt like a slap in the face when I was called money hungry and thought to be asking for too much when I was barly paid half of what they where charging at the door on a sold out show. When I came accross what Jay said... It was nice to finaly get a quote to make them and others aware... not insult. Some think this topic should be talked about quietly out of public, but obviously this is one seriouse issue when a thread like this literaly explodes with veiws and posts in such short time. Last edited by Ree Fresh; Apr 20, 06 at 06:42 PM.
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Apr 20, 06
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I let it go because I figured he might be trying to make some money off it.
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Apr 20, 06
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